Not only was this war pre-emptive and poorly planned and event then poorly executed but your statement is based on the faulty premise that the surge was some sort of miracle cure that was successful. You can have "disgust" for those who don't share in your opinion...but your opinions aren't based in fact, and *in truth* ignore fact. Just not an effective way to engage in productive conversation...

I was part of the surge, and that was my second tour. But you've misread me if you believe I'm claiming the surge was a miracle cure.

"Disgust" is too strong a word, disappointment too weak. Something in between.

As for mission planning and execution, such things never survive first contact. There's no news there. The surge was one of many adjustments made on a hell of a long road.

your opinions aren't based in fact, and *in truth* ignore fact.

some sort of miracle cure that was successful.

what fact -- or truth -- have you ignored, Greyhawk? it is momoftwo that ignores the fact that the Surge has been successful (maybe not a miracle, but certainly successful) in stemming the violence and cementing the victory in Iraq... and that must just frost those that had or so badly wanted (maybe still want) to declare the Iraq as lost.

and if disgust and disappointment don't cut it, I'd say that those people irritate the hell out of me.

Hmmmm, momoftwo must be a faithful Reid groupie. Her tripe sounds so familiar

If you're at a computer that doesn't allow streaming video here's the gist, On Meet the Press:

MR. GREGORY: Let me ask you about the war in Iraq. In April of 2007, this is what you said: "I believe myself that ... this war is lost and the surge is not accomplishing anything." Were you wrong?

SEN. REID: David, I first met General David Petraeus in Iraq. He was training the Iraqi forces at that time. At that time, he knew it wasn't working. After he became the commander in Iraq, he and I sat down and talked. He said to me, and he said within the sound of everyone's voice, "The war cannot be won militarily." I said it differently than he did. But it needed a change in direction. Petraeus brought that about. He brought it about—the surge helped, of course it helped. But in addition to that, the urging of me and other people in Congress and the country dictated a change, and that took place. So...

Harry Reid says the Iraq War is still lost and that there is civil war in Iraq.

Apparently Da Nile isn't only a river in Egypt.

1. Nothing which occurred before the surge was wasted, inept, or improperly authorized, planned, or executed. The plan was followed to the limits of its premises, and to the troops finest abilities. Until doctrine changed (and I remind you GreyHawk, of your own posts pointing to all the gnashing of teeth and insistence from Dhimmicrats that the Iraqis do more of their own fighting in 2004 AND 2005 from these same idiots who now say doing so was a mistake .... as if fully capable, professional, and competent military forces of any stripe rose within weeks from the ashes of a destroyed civilization), the plan was followed, and would have worked given another ten years for Iraqis to finally grow tired enough of killing each other and tougher Americans than they had ever dreamed of, instead of living for themselves.

momoftwo has short term and long term memory loss.... but I don't.

Our leaders did what they could with a recalcitrant and obstinate insurgent ideology, which insisted that Arabs are incapable of making anything good occur unless Allah magically willed it so, and that the use of Reason and Kindness towards their fellow Man was not to be trusted because infidels and apostates were inferior to Islamic ideals and deserved beheading, homicide bombing, murder and rape as answers to Peace.

Even without the Surge, Iraq would eventually have been pacified, even if only by their own exhaustion from slaughtering their neighbors. All we had to do was hang on.

momoftwo wouldn't understand History, Truth or Facts, even if she was bitten by them on the ass, they developed lockjaw, and were dragged to death behind her, because all she has is the certitude that Bush is evil, and War is perpetually wrong.

I suffer from no such illusions. And all I ever need to assure my certitude is to reread the stories of the Mumbai, London, Borneo, Madrid, Algeria, Kenya, Tanzanian, Morrocco, Istanbul, Iraq, Aden, Yemen, Saudi, Afghan, Pakistani, and 9-11 killers of innocents, and watch the beheading videos so vaunted by the press for recruiting Islamic terrorists worldwide, and yet, somehow, lacking in stiffening the resolve and disgust Westerners feel towards such a religion and ideology that massacres little girls going to school, rapes young women for sport, beheads their enemies to strike fear, and yet hides under a woman's burkha when confronted by Men who are only marginally more well armed than they are, except with the presence of Right and Goodness on their side.

The terrorist is a coward who chooses only innocent and weaker targets as victims because they cannot face Men who stand for Peace and Justice, wherever, and whomever they may be. Until Iraqis saw with their own eyes that American soldiers were morally and physically superior to anything a Koranic zealot could provide, they would always choose Islam over Infidel. Now, their choice is cloudy, and their experiences belie the usual propaganda they hear about American injustice.

A pox on momoftwo. The Truth, as unpleasant as it usually is, doesn't support her contention of anything in her statements. And you, and I, both know that is so.

Subsunk