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The other parts that were interesting were that this movie was motivated by the raid in which 173d Airborne troops nabbed 11 Turkish SF guys in Kirkuk in 2003. The Turks were irate, and claimed to have every right to be there and stated they had been there since after Desert Storm. I guess it didn't bother them that they weren't part of this war, or that 173d had no way of knowing who they were other than a bunch of guys armed to the teeth...and oh yeah, they put a hit out on the Kurdish mayor of Kirkuk. But never mind, blame us.

This movie is about how the leader of this Turkish SF team commits suicide to preserve his honor, and the rest of the team are the ones who re-infiltrate Iraq and take out "Zane" and this doctor. There's a great line from the Mayor of Istanbul in the CNN article: "A soldier's honor must never be damaged." Oh, I guess that only applies to *their* Soldiers, not ours.

Another comment which drips with irony is the one at the end of the piece: "There isn't going to be a war over this," said Nefise Karatay, a Turkish model lounging on a sofa after the premiere. "Everyone knows that Americans have a good side. That's not what this is about."

Posted by PowerPointSamurai at February 3, 2006 07:16 PM

What filth! I am sure this will go over big with the Mother Sheehan fans in the US.

Amazing that obvious anti-semitism and anti-Americanism in films like this come out without fear of reprisal, while cartoons at all critical of Islam provoke extreme violence and death threats.

Maybe if we start reacting with violence, they'd be more careful of slanderous portrayals. But of course, that would be wrong, and immoral. and so, there will no incidents of the kind.

Amazing, that such cravenly eeeeevul soldiers can restrain themselves when they see crap like this.

Posted by dadmanly at February 3, 2006 07:41 PM

...So what?

How many Hollywood products cast the Government and its employees as villians, criminals or worse? How many of us watch THAT drivel?

This is nothing new or surprising. Other nations would like us to fail, even our allies.

I mean it honestly...who cares?

Posted by Chris at February 3, 2006 09:18 PM

Looks like we have a new Jane Fonda.

Posted by Jim at February 4, 2006 08:07 AM

I'm surprised there was no mention of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion in the movie...they really missed out on an opportunity to keep a harmful urban legend going...

Posted by Trevor at February 4, 2006 01:42 PM

"The scenario is great," Istanbul Mayor Kadir Topbas told The Associated Press after the film was shown at a posh opening gala Tuesday night. "It was very successful."

Sad to say this is the only way they can ever be successful: Make a fantasy up and then make it a movie. History be damned.... Posted by Curt at February 4, 2006 06:20 PM

I don' t remember any victory of US army. Do you Curt? You were beaten in Pearl Harbour,Vietnam.... Now in Iraq the snippers hunting american soldiers like a bird. So its better for americans to shot their mouths up...God damned.

Posted by Goksenin at February 5, 2006 08:15 AM

Curt are you serious about the success of the Turkish and the Ottoman armies which ruled three continents while your US armies failed in Vietnam,Iraq etc.

I watched the movie and it's just reflecting the truth between the "Freedom Operation" in Iraq.. Turkmens are made to migrate, they are hunted innocently by US soldiers..

Oil.. The GOD OF YOURS IS OIL.. And we see this in the movie too..

Watching the REAL US IN IRAQ is really bad and hard to accept for you I know.. But think about Turkey.. Turkey is not Arabic or Islamıst country as you see in your newspapers.. I have no difference with London pupils in my lifestyle.. But beyond these, you know Turkey as an Islamıst 3rd World Country.. You blame us like that even if we're not.You're OK with that situation.But when we show your real face in a movie, you start to talk unconciously..

Shut up and watch your reality in Iraq...

Posted by Juan at February 5, 2006 11:12 AM

Did the last two posts come from the same IP?

Quick, repeat it a third time, then your fantasies will magically come true. It's in all the legends.

Posted by Patrick Chester at February 5, 2006 03:48 PM

Shut up and watch your reality in Iraq...

Shut up and provide some evidence.

Posted by Jordan at February 5, 2006 07:41 PM

Heh!

This movie funded by American goverment to cool down Turkish American relations. Because, U.S.A wants to invade Iran too. Your goverment wants our support again.

No, this movie will not cool down us. in 4 july 2003, your goverment was made big mistake.

We do not forget this, one day we will restore our honour...

You are not heros of world. No one wants to see you in iraq. Your wealth or military power doesn't make you and your politics right.

Ah yes, you may say "this is not my point of view" and that Bush is your president and that iraq civillians killed by your soldiers.

And if want to see Soldier honour, look for Turkish Korean relations or check the Anzac day...

Posted by Mehmetcik at February 5, 2006 10:03 PM

I find it revealing (and a bit frightening) to realize these comments come from people who are taught about the few times the US took it on the chin militarily, and nothing about all the victories (Pearl Harbor... but not the rest of WWII?).

Amazing how state-sponsored ignorance can be so final and pervasive.

Posted by Jonathan Murray at February 6, 2006 02:10 AM

Couple of (childish) thoughts...Juan references the Turkish and Ottoman Army which ruled 3 continents. That's true...it's also true that the Ottoman Empire was a wheezing geezer of an empire for 100 years prior to that, and finally was put down after the war like the dying dog it was.

"No one wants to see you in Iraq." ...Except for the Iraqi people, apparently.

"Turkey is not Arabic or Islamıst country as you see in your newspapers"

Nothing could be further from the truth...most people over here know that Turkey is one of the few Middle Eastern countries with any tradition of the rule of law (albeit a rule of law backed up by military force...but flawed is better than none). However, the fact that you are apparently ignorant of that should, possibly, make you question what else you are ignorant about.

Posted by Mike at February 6, 2006 03:42 AM

You know, things have apparently changed A LOT since I lived in Turkey (at that, a FAR less "modern" area than say, western Turkey!). I've always defended Turkey because of their (past?) friendliness to western civilization, and because of Mehmet Kemal Ataturk's bringing Turkey into the 20th century. Turks are far better educated than the rest of the Islamic world, and that's highlighted by their desire to become more "European" and their membership in NATO.

But NOW, the Islamists and the insecure have apparently gained in power and Ataturk's reforms have been forgotten, if not condemned.

Why on earth these Turks would want to take giant steps backwards (centuries' worth!) and be like the Arab (and Persian) nations to their south and east is incomprehensible. Don't they value any of the benefits that Ataturk brought them? Don't they want to remain a relatively advanced society (at least in comparison to the Arab Islamist societies)? Why throw that, and the inherent rights and riches they DO have? To be sure, Turkey is not as rich or with the rights of European countries, but WITH THE EXCEPTION OF THE KURDISH TURKS, they are (were?) far better off than their neighbors.

Get back with the present, Turks. It's the 21st century. You are throwing away your present AND your future. You want power, obviously; but anti-Western hatred and Islamism isn't the way to do it. All that crap is simply an invitation to your own self-inflicted demise.

We do not forget this, one day we will restore our honour...

Americans didn't steal your "honour," your radicals and the corruption in your country stole your honour. If anything, America has honored you for years. Furthermore, America has basically turned a blind eye to the despotic Turkish treatment of the Kurds within its own borders, despite the horrific human rights abuses and the countless times the Turks have double-crossed its allies. You are a total hypocrite if you think AMERICA has been anything BUT a friend to you, regardless of whether you truly have deserved it.

You are not heros of world.

And you expect to be with your hatred and self-pity? Here's a tip: you're on the wrong side of history--you can't ever be a "hero of the world" from that position.

What Turkey needs more than anything is another Ataturk, not pro-Islamist, anti-Western radicals.

Most Americans had hoped Afghanistan and Iraq would follow the Ataturk-molded model of Turkey, but obviously with Turkish society being the example it is today, I'm not so sure of that any more. Maybe if you Turks got back with the program and acted as though you WANTED to be part of the European community as you once did, you would be as rich and powerful as they are, and get back this "honor" you claim to have lost.

Until then, I'm done with you.

Posted by Beth at February 6, 2006 04:09 AM

it's also true that the Ottoman Empire was a wheezing geezer of an empire

True, and Ataturk gave Turks THEIR OWN nation, and educated the almost universally-illiterate Turks and gave them their own language. I say again, why would they want to be taken back to the past? To be made barbaric again?

Posted by Beth at February 6, 2006 04:12 AM

Yeah... Pearl Harbor ended up just awesome for the Japanese... whooo... what a great military victory there. So they sank hmm, what? Oh yeah- about 10 (I don't even think it was that many) DREADNOUGHT!!! era battleships other assorted smaller ships, and a couple hundred American lives? People forget that at that time the Naval Appropriations Act passed the year before authorized a huge naval buildup and that already being built in the Naval Yards were- 6 New Jersey Class BBs, 4 Montana Class BBs (Monsters even bigger than the NJ classes). At least 8 Essex class carriers were on the stays although we would produce eventually 17 other big deck carriers for the Pacific and 86 smaller escort carriers, and would crank up to produce 4,000+ airplanes a year!!!! Japan was virtually defeated from the moment it began dropping bombs because the fleet it had was unable to be significantly expanded. Instead it was to rely on "the warrior spirit!" So.. this made for a very bloody war but one that was unwinnable for Japan. Some victory....

Posted by tz at February 6, 2006 06:07 AM

Woow, everybody chill out! Thanks Beth for the recognition of Ataturk. Please, do not lose it so badly. When it comes to history, Ottoman was the only one that can manage the Arab island for hundreds of years. As the US surprisingly experience know, it is not that easy. I will disagree with your comments about being barbaric. I want to think that you say it because of the spur of the moment. When it comes to Kurdish problem, I have to say: Are you serious? If you do not know how many innocent had died because of the terror, who would know? People, take it easy and remember it is just a movie. It talks about corrupted ex-soldier, who believes he is the chosen one, and he has all the right to be cruel when it comes to rule. Isn't that familiar Hollywood story? Just calm down and watch it as a movie. There is no reason to be so fanatic about it.

Posted by zesty at February 6, 2006 06:15 AM

Zesty, your advice to "Just calm down and watch it as a movie. There is no reason to be so fanatic about it." is good advice.

Perhaps some people can take the same advice about Danish cartoons.

Although I'm still pretty offended by the "organ-stealing Jewish doctor" stereotype. And I'm not even Jewish. Still, I'm not going to burn down any embassies or call for beheadings over it.

Posted by Nicholas at February 6, 2006 06:25 AM

Danish cartoons are representing our prophet as a terrorist. Would you like to see something like this about Jesus (or any other religious symbol/person)? I don't think so. I do not approve them for burning down the embassy buildings. But let's be honest, this is a very good provocation, and some of the Muslims bought it as always.

Posted by zesty at February 6, 2006 06:50 AM

Why on earth these Turks would want to take giant steps backwards (centuries' worth!) and be like the Arab (and Persian) nations to their south and east is incomprehensible. Don't they value any of the benefits that Ataturk brought them? Don't they want to remain a relatively advanced society (at least in comparison to the Arab Islamist societies)? Why throw that, and the inherent rights and riches they DO have? To be sure, Turkey is not as rich or with the rights of European countries, but WITH THE EXCEPTION OF THE KURDISH TURKS, they are (were?) far better off than their neighbors.
---- -------- ------- ------
If Turkiye is not rich its cuz of European countries and cuz of our right sided politicans.We have enough oil, gold, boron (%90 of world reserve in Turkiye) but we are not letting mine them out. English companies are mining my gold, America is not giving permission for oil... And such... Try to check Turkish Media for further info from "Ugur Mumcu" (killed by bomb), "Abdi Ipekci" (killed by Pope's shooter) search them some i hope u can find some English document from these honorable journalists who lived in Turkiye.
*************************************************
That's true...it's also true that the Ottoman Empire was a wheezing geezer of an empire for 100 years prior to that, and finally was put down after the war like the dying dog it was.

------ -------- ----------
Do you satisfy your ego when you call my ancestors as a "dying dog" ? They ruled 700 hundred years many different culteres they gave religious freedom, even some Sultans was halfblood Turkish cuz they gave permission to non turkish people to get rank in government.

But dont forget from the ashes of dead dog a wolf raised and bite many too hard. Our republic is not even 100 years old. Yes we are living some hard times with this religious governmet too but we will wait with patience.

**********************************************
Americans didn't steal your "honour," your radicals and the corruption in your country stole your honour. If anything, America has honored you for years. Furthermore, America has basically turned a blind eye to the despotic Turkish treatment of the Kurds within its own borders, despite the horrific human rights abuses and the countless times the Turks have double-crossed its allies. You are a total hypocrite if you think AMERICA has been anything BUT a friend to you, regardless of whether you truly have deserved it.
-------- ------------- -------------
You mean despotic acts against Kurdish Terrorist group PKK. You said you lived here but i think u didnt watch tv or read something. Even Kurdish "Ozal" was the president of Turkish people so what despotiv foolishness u r speaking about. America is not a ally for us as long as we accept their politics. In theory they are not.
************************************************
And about dishonor... If you lived in Turkiye you have to also know how this people idolize their Soldier. We dont pay for our soldier to fight like in America. They accept it as a duty to for our country. And many died agaisnt Kurdish Terrorist Group PKK which is supported by America :)

With this movie or without this movie high percentage of world population already agaisnt the Bush politics (this people liked Bill Cliton so much why?). And we Turkish people are not agaisnt American people u r just human as everyone difference is we are living in differ lands. Understand it: Turkish people is agaisnt Bush politics.

If you are supporting him iam sorry but u r all too arrogant.

Posted by Bleda the Hun at February 6, 2006 11:10 AM

I am a Turkish citizen and this movie is nothing but an embaresment to intelligent Turks world wide. It is just another popcorn movie Turkish style, no different than old Rambo movies of Hollywood.

Valley of the wolves used to be a TV show that included American actors such as Sharon Stone, Andy Garcia and was very popular in Turkey just like a Soap opera. Turkey has great film directors but very low budgets, this is not an artistic movie. Its just what Rambo did to Americans this does to Turks..

Fiction way of dealing with hooded incident in Kerkuk. Iraq.

Turks have been down there for years fighting Kurdish seperatist group PKK. ( see Boomerang Hell )

Posted by Murat at February 6, 2006 04:44 PM

I was born in Istanbul and my family was left after the 1955 pogrom targeting the Greek minority. It was the "Kristalnacht" most Americans are unaware of. I don't hold a grudge against turks but let's face it they don't have a great record when it comes to human rights. Ask the Greeks, Armenians and Kurds. As muslims, their outlook is not compatible with Western Culture. Ataturk removed the outward signs but ultimately he failed to transform Turkey into a European country. Religious freedom in Turkey is a joke. Most Americans have been brought up to believe Turkey is an ally. They don't know much about history. The Turks (and I would include the Greeks also)are not our friends and their recent actions during the invasion of Iraq are quite clear. I couln't care less about this movie except that it affords us a window into the soul of Turkey and Hollywood as well.

Posted by Stavros at February 6, 2006 05:46 PM

I think some of the Turks posting here are missing the point. For one, I seriously doubt any of them have been in Iraq since the war began to make an honest comparison between the movie and the reality of what's going on. I have. In fact, I was in Iraq at the time of the actual raid that supposedly sparked this movie.

I for one have respect for Turkish Soldiers and they have a well earned reputation for being tough and capable. They were renowned for their valor in the Korean war. Mehmetcik is right about that and Anzac day. However, the issue here is this movie and it's blatant smear on American troops. One of the points made in the article about this movie is about upholding the honor of the Turkish troops. Nobody dishonored them, but this movie dishonors us. If some Turkish military people are upset about the raid back in 2003, just pause a moment and consider how were US troops supposed to know who these guys were? Moreover, why were they trying to put a hit out on a new Iraqi government official? Let's reverse this scenario and say Turkish troops found US Special Forces under similar circumstances.

Also Zesty is correct about the Danish cartoon issue, except I don't agree with the violence that has resulted of it. We Christians have sat by while "artists" have used the image of Jesus in reprehensible ways. Again, I don't think beheading the artist is the right way to go about it, but I can sympathize with the Muslims who are upset by this.

Finally, Juan, your post was full of crazy talk. First off, the ethnic Turkomen in Iraq are very helpful and certainly not chastized by US troops. They were screwed over by Saddam about as badly as the Kurds were, and know that if the new government doesn't take hold that whoever takes Saddam's place (especially if chaos takes his place) that they will get screwed worse. Also, are you serious about the oil? We get a little over 6% of our oil from Iraq. (http://www.eia.doe.gov/neic/rankings/totimportsby_country.htm). Pretty expensive oil if that's what it's about, eh?

Posted by PowerPointSamurai at February 6, 2006 06:37 PM

I have seen the movie and thought it was a mirror to what has been REALLY going on in Iraq for a while in stead of what US wants to empose and convince us about...
Also, I try to remember the reasons of this WAR, while we try to talk and settle in stead of killing innocents to resolve our issues. Especially when one of the sides is such an educated and modern country. Well, on the other hand, not many Americans care about politics, The truth is they do not evet bother voting. And I do not even thing many of them knew where Iraq was on the map before the war and may be even now.
Power and capital should not be spent to kill...and from what we have been witnessing for the past couple of years thats exactly what is happening in the Iraqi lands..even if it is hard to accept of not...People are dying for no reason...
A war is not a natural disaster...it is man made and I think Americans are getting offended when the truth is right on their face...

Posted by Oz at February 7, 2006 10:37 AM

The Sad reality is that there will never be peace! No matter what, some will hate others. Even if proof is in the face of the unbeliver, pride steps in the way of common sense. Hollywood is just doing what they do best, depicting things and making them "shocking enough to stir a buzz" and get people out to see their movie. To tell you the thruth Im was surprized Billy Zane was in this movie. It just comes down to the point that " those that made this movie weren't concerned about honoring/dishonoring those involved in the incidents depicted in the movie". They were concerned with the "honoring" their wallets. In the end they are just as Greedy as they make Americans out to be. Money is the root of all evil. Makes you think...
And by the way... The US Military is one of the most honorable positions... we have men and women step up to the plate and volunteer to put their lives on the line, no matter if you get paid alot or a little, they have to survive just like everyone one else. God bless the US Armed Forces.

Posted by Erika at February 7, 2006 12:14 PM

Oz, do you read the comments before you post one? Obviously not.

At 6:37PM, PowerPointSamurai explained that he IS IN Iraq and that he is in a position to make a more honest comparison than others who are not. He goes on to say that the movie is a blatant smear on US troops. Then at 10:37AM the next day you go ahead and say that you think the movie better represents reality. Are you in Iraq? If not, how do you know better than PowerPointSamurai? I'm thinking, you're just wishing it to be the case, with no actual evidence to back your convictions up.

Sheesh.

Posted by Nicholas at February 7, 2006 02:39 PM

"Danish cartoons are representing our prophet as a terrorist."

One could say a careful reading of the Koran and Hadiths would show they do a better job of it than the cartoons did.

Posted by Don Miguel at February 7, 2006 10:22 PM

Pearl Harbor?

Hmmm... Ended badly for the Japanese... (Come to think of it, it ended badly for the Nazis, the Italians, and the Vichy French too...)

The Turks showed great honor after Gallipoli, no doubt about it, but that war wasn't a war against fanatics...

THIS war is a battle for survival, and the fanatics have been smoked out, and we now know their true color... Saddam will be proven to have had WMD, and we now see the "compassion" and "peaceful ways" of an entire religion... For all of the cries for mercy, these Muslims don't seem to be showing any...

Those of you who "have seen" incidents that supposedly inspired this picture, show me proof...

Otherwise, I'll continue to listen to my fellow war-fighters who have boots on the ground in country for an accurate picture of the goings ons...

Posted by Sgt. B. at February 8, 2006 12:52 AM

Hey everyone my name is Andy and I live in Los Angeles, Ca. I haven't seen the movie yet, but am looking forward to seeing it. Many Americans say they have seen it. Please tell me where I could see the movie in LA. I wanna see the movie in order to write my ideas in the forum also. I have seen the soap opera format of the movie and it looked great. Again please, someone help me and tell me where I could see the movie. Thank you very much.

Posted by andy at February 8, 2006 01:46 AM

Calm down, its just a damn movie, the only truth is that Turkish soldiers were kidnapped by American soldiers, has anyone got evidence of US army soldiers leading to intentions? Was it approved by the White House? No one knows; Did the order come from an high ranked American? No one knows. So I think whats going on in here is stupidity. Turkey and America are allies and would never make war for at least a very long time, because you never know what direction the future goes. Militairy actions are extremely serious actions from now on. Lots of countries got enough equipment to blow up the earth. You do not want to imagine a world war in the Future.

So please, think about what you say before you make it public.

Posted by LOL at February 9, 2006 02:13 PM

My English Very bad. i hope all understand my text..
-----------------------------------------------
all turkish People speaking about this film now. its Plane of USA. USA Made a mistake in iraq ... and Turkey People Angry For this.
USA Want turkey People Forget this and Some USA agent Came turkey and Searched for a Propaganda. "valey of the Wolves" this is series film the on turkish TV since long time About Turkey Goverments-mafia. And USA want use This film for USA propaganda.Because Lot of Turks Loved This series Film. this Plan Turkish People revenge 11 special soldiers with This Film and turkish People will forget about all.
Why USA Done this plane because USA Will Go iran.
USA they need turkey.
------------------------------------------------

i am thinking USA peoples. Your goverment and media make Peoples blinds.
i am turk and i Dont hate american People but i Dont like your President. he was made lot of wrong.
He like Dewil. He love Wars.
he dont Thinking about Terrorist or USA people. if he thinking it he never do this mistake.
USA people Cant see what is real .. because your goverment dont want see they how make mistake there.

it war not for terorisim it war For Petrols all world Know this. and How USA thinking we Kill all terrorist ? is it Simple? if one day Terroist killed in USA
People Again like 11september for revenge? maybe more... anybody Cant Block terorism With wars.
i am Thinking it is not blame USA peoples. i was watched TV and other foreign TV. i am Thinking about USA Soldiers they Havent Honour. and all World Thinking this because all world watched USA soldiers scandals. i want say somethings about 11Special Forces. Our Military system not like USA. We never dont be Soldier for money. it is a mission for all turks. and We must do it. and Honour Lot of importand For Turkish Soldiers.
i am Thinking USA people dont know Turkish soldiers Catch a albay and some USA soldiers in iraq and USA colenel unclothe/stark naked...

Posted by Serkan at February 9, 2006 11:19 PM

albay=colonel

Posted by serkan at February 9, 2006 11:21 PM

There is so much talk, but how many have seen this film. It isnt available yet in North America, hopefully it will be and we can all see it. But lets be clear about a few things, this is not a hollywood production, this is a all Turkish effort, therefore the sensibilities are Turkish. Even though there are American actors in this film, they are not the lead role, that goes to Polat, he's the star, the avenging angel. Does anyone really believe that Mr. Bush attacked a country of what, 10 million people because he wanted to bring democarcy to the iraqi people, what nonsense. America is there to protect Israel and gain control of some oil. Weapons of mass destruction? There wasn't even one. So, there we are a huge American force armed to the teeth, 8000 miles from home protecting itself against a poverty state that it has been bombing for ten years prior. What a bully you are, what a coward. The brave American soldiers? There has to be a reason to be brave, there are none, there is no army to fight, so what are you brave soldiers so brave about, what are you doing in iraq? Your bravery against a none existant foe makes you look like a puffed up bully. How brave is it to bomb civilians at weddings from airplanes 30, 000 feet up where there isnt even a hint of danger for those brave pilots, dropping 1000 pound bombs on families and homes. Such bravery, such excellent heroic acts.( This seems to be similar to what happens in the movie) If a people don't have the means to protect themselves, at least they can show and speak about what is happening to them. That is what the movie portrays and I see that the liberators do not like it, too bad. At least if this poor battered nation, this people lying in the sand can't protect itself physically,at least it can do it in the movies. So dont get excited America, as compared to your actions, it is only make believe, its a pretend, no one is in pain , or bleeding or dying , in this movie , its just a movie, not one..and i am from north america. Can you imagine how those who live there feel?.

Posted by Aziz Abubakr at February 10, 2006 02:18 AM

I think the subject of this story is stupid, As a member of US Military (Army) for 22 years and a person that served in IRAQ for 17 Month I can tell that this movie and the story is so far from truth it is criminal. I hope this movie is band in the US and criminal charges filed against every American that participated in its making. You are endangering the life of every American soldier serving this country. And finally you are stupid if you don’t think that this movie will cause more problem for Americans and the western Europe.

Posted by pete at February 10, 2006 09:42 PM

i am thinking This is Only Film.
and......
i am thinking lot of country will love this film and will affect.

Posted by Serkan at February 11, 2006 07:54 PM

united states is the dajjal (=anti christ). Its rulers are members of a cabal (=illuminati) who worship to baal (=satan) and pursue a zionist agenda. us army is therefore the army of the antichrist.
u.s. deceives its enemies by 'peace'. In the name of peace they approach and kill many...
The only terrorists in Iraq and Afghanistan are the filthy americans...

Posted by Turk at February 13, 2006 10:12 AM

The movie is about the facts.
Did americans killed innocent people? YES!
Did americans torture people? YES!
Did americans steal oil? YES!
Did americans raped muslim women? YES!
Did americans dropped their nuclear waste over Iraq and Afghanistan? YES!
YES! YES! YES!

So, why are you getting so upset?
america is evil...

Posted by SpecForce at February 13, 2006 10:35 AM

America is evil? That's a bit hypocritical coming from the Turks who have the blood of millions of Armenian civilians on their hands. But I guess genocide is accepted where you come from but not the accidental arrest of a bunch of out-of-uniform highly armed Turkish soldiers.

Posted by heralder at February 13, 2006 03:24 PM

Oh, and SpecForce, why don't you show some evidence for your claims...just you saying it doesn't make it true as much as you wish it did.

Posted by heralder at February 13, 2006 03:26 PM

You are the real bastard men, you know. You are raiding all the world and killing millions of pepople for oil and money. Or you think you can do that. But one day; someone will kick your ass and i will be around those. We are the The Turks asshole and noone can win against Turks. Never forget that you son of bitchs...

Posted by Turk at February 13, 2006 07:14 PM

Raiding all the world? Try again...but this time...let's try to keep your argument with in the realm of reality. And I advise you, get your information from other places than the movies, and state-controlled Islamic media, you'll be a wiser person.

No one is perfect. Mistakes have been made and there have been cases of bad judgement, welcome to the human race. This movie is a work of fiction, nothing more nothing less. Accept it.

Posted by heralder at February 13, 2006 09:29 PM

Do Americans kill innocent people..NO
Do Americans rape muslims most definitly not.
Do Americans steal oil, LOL..no, your own government sells it to us you idiot.
Did Americans drop bombs, yes that we did do. But there is a hugh difference in being killed in the cross fire of war, and planning an attack on cilivian people...does 911 ring a bell? Does flying plans into the twin towners ring a bell? How soon we forget. Or how about the fact your own government kills its own people, staves its own people. My my how we forget. And as far as the movie, NO its propaganda put out to put America in a bad light, but again I guess you would know allllll about propaganda. And Oh yeah those cartoons about mohammed are TRUE!!!

The Middle East is Evil!!!

Posted by J. at February 14, 2006 12:01 AM

You are right this movie is fiction and a bad one. The turks have no room to talk about the US. Any of these middle easthen countries can talk about no one, when they have shed blood of their own and killed innocent people, when you become perfect then get back to us. Dumb Asses

Posted by J at February 14, 2006 12:07 AM

Gary Busey and Billy Zane are hitless wonders since their fleeting moments of glory YEARS ago.

It is no surprise to me at all that they are so desperate that they would sell their souls to the devil, putting American (and other) lives at risk, to try to support their indulgent lifestyles. I'm sure the unpaid bills are piling up.

It's satisfying to know that they will not sleep well at night once they see that their poor judgement will, itself, cost innocent lives.

Anyone who sees this movie is putting money into the pockets of terrorists who are inspired by this movie to do to U.S. cities (such as L.A.) what they did to NY and DC.

Which is ironic given that this will leave Gary and Billy with no place to pick up their paychecks should LA be hit.

Posted by A Soldier's Wife at February 14, 2006 02:41 AM

I am a Turk who came to USA when I was 18. I have lived in Florida since then. I have been treated nicely by most Americans and also I met many Americans who spent some time in Turkey. Majority of them were pleased by the Turkish hospitality. They said it was't anything like described in "Midnight Express"( The Turks are literally depicted as pigs). By the way Oliver Stone came to Turkey in 2004 and nobody mistreated him in any way. Perhaps he was ashamed after the nice way he was treated in Turkey. Just because Valley of the Wolves-Iraq portrayed Americans in a very negative way, does this mean that the entire nation is becoming radical Islamist country? Turkey is a progressive country despite the fact that countries like Greece supports PKK terrorists to cause turmoil in the country. (By the way, many western journalists have criticized Greece for hosting Kurdish separists. I guess Greeks do not support them because they are pro-Kurdish but they do it because they are anti-Turkish. PKK is recognized as a terrorist group in the western world. May I ask why doesn"t Greece count as a nation supporting terrorism? If it was a muslim country it would be called as a terrorist nation right away.
Speaking of movies, has anyone seen the movie called "The Message" It is based on the start of Islam. Anthony Quin starred in it. It was a very good movie talking about the wonderful similarities between Islam and the Christianity. I see a horrible movie like" Midnight Express" everywhere in USA and it is broadcasted on tv for way too many times. How many times was The Message on? Probably never. I saw negative representations of Turks in every single American movie that had references to Turkish people. I guess we should try to understand and converse each other like civilized people.

Posted by Mehmet at February 14, 2006 03:09 AM

Pete I am in agreement with you, I too fear that this movie will cause a great deal of problems. As well as putting out troops at risk. I hope that this movie never comes to the US. I hope if it does that every American will boycott this movie.

Posted by T.J. at February 14, 2006 04:05 AM

Friends,

I thought some perspective might help.

The Apostle Paul wrote:
"You are honored, we are dishonored. To this very hour we go hungry and thirsty, we are in rags, we are brutally treated, we are homeless. We work hard with our own hands. When we are cursed, we bless; when we are slandered, we answer kindly. Up to this moment we have decome the scum of the earth, the refuse of the world." (1 Corinthians 4:10b-13)

While there are exceptions, this embodies much of the ethical conduct of an American Soldier. US soldiers are held accountable by the Laws of Armed Conflict, such as the Geneva Convention. Take note of those American soldiers in American prisons for violating these laws.

Meanwhile Jesus is maligned worldwide as He has always been. Christians are murdered for their faith more than any other religious group (Sudan alone offers ample evidence, as did the Communist gulags of Eastern Europe until recently). Despite this, these hated Christians build hospitals for ALL poor people, ship food and emergency aid by millions of tons to people of ALL faith groups, without requiring conversion.

Christians at their best forgive their enemies. They do not waste blood in "honor killings" and they find no honor in violence for the sake of mere honor. They do, however, SUFFER for the sake of honor. Honor is not found in mere victory but in victory that lends mercy to non-combatants and justice to those who commit atrocities. The same can be said for the American Soldier.

Sirkan, Aziz, Turk and SpecForce do not understand this part of our culture, especially our military culture. We for our part provide more sacrifice for needy Iraqis than could ever be seen in American oil profits. We sacrifice our lives to SAVE the lives of PEOPLE, never for wealth! We rescue hundeds in Pakistan and thousands throughout the world in numerous disasters. We give away billions of dollars in aid, only to be hated by the very people we help. Our hope is that in some cases there will be gratitude. It is believed that we worship oil, but really the WHOLE world worships oil because it is energy EVERYONE neets for FOOD. Interestingly, America feeds more poor people throughout the world FREE OF CHARGE than all the other nations of the world combined!

Keep in mind that it takes more of a man to take a punch than to throw one. Who is tougher, the hated American who feeds the world, or the terrorist who only knows how to kill? The priest who was murdered last week (a Christian martyr), or the suicide bomber (jihadist "martyr") who killed children? I would rather be hated by the world and lied about while doing what is right than be "honored" by the world for hating others.

Blessings,
Fr. Wes

Posted by Fr. Wes at February 14, 2006 07:54 AM

I find the entire discussion very amusing.

On the one hand we see some very anyoed americans, who are suprised to see that other countries are not affraid to make cheap propaganda movies themselves.

No question, the movie is unrealistic and dangerous but on the other hand for how many decades have we seen american movies portraying germans, french, brits, russians and arabs as moronic bastards? Just imagine they would have made a copy of Rambo in turkish: One turk kills thousands of americans in revenge! Any damn foreigner had to eat hollywood movies in which his nation was "the evil" and the US was "the honorable". Seriously, be prepared that hollywood will have problems exporting its garbage, cause each country will create its own.
And just wait till enough money is available to make movies such as Saving Private Ryan. And yes, even lots of propaganda was in that one, just properly hidden...

Posted by the cosmopolitan at February 14, 2006 10:39 AM

Cosmopolitan: If I remember correctly, Rambo killed a lot of Americans in the first movie. Rambo wasn't about Americans easily killing off foreign cannon-fodder, the first film has him killing off a corrupt US sherrifs department that mistreats him and spills over to numerous national guard bubbas. I don't remember much about Rambo II, but the people Rambo kills off in Rambo III are not Afghans, but Russians, and they are not made to look like cannon fodder either--they fight rather competently and tenaciously. Rambo III also showed the Afghans in a very complimentary light.

Mehmet: I've never heard of "Midnight Express", but then again, I'm not at all a fan of Oliver Stone, so I gather it was the total flop it should've been based on your description.

My point here is that maybe there are some movies that stereotype people from other countries but most of them are marginalized.

Posted by PowerPointSamurai at February 14, 2006 02:17 PM

Yeah I don't seem to recall Rambo or Delta Force being hailed as "THIS MOVIE IS THE TRUTH" "IT'S ALL TRUE" "SO-AND-SO-IS EVIL"...not to mention that these movies weren't made at a time where real lives will be lost as a result. And they will I assure you. If it takes a cartoon to throw people into a rage, what do you think this movie will do? It certainly doesn't help that alot of the middle east will believe ANYTHING Al-Jazeera or fundamentalist cleric tells them.
So to answer your question, there's a world of difference between campy unrealistic movies made in a time of peace about a past enemy...and a movie made in a time of war that tells gullible people that it's nothing short of a documentary to the very people who already want to kill the subject of the film, a movie that pours gasoline on the conflagration that is the war in iraq.

That's the difference. So many people make this ridiculous comparison...and if they really can't see why and how this movie causes real probelms then I fear for their common sense.

Posted by heralder at February 14, 2006 02:17 PM

Poster LOL: here are some facts pertaining to the raid that supposedly sparked this movie. It was in Kirkuk, the Turkish SF team was in a house and in plain clothes (not in uniform), we did not know they were there, our guys got a tip about a group of highly armed people in the building and they raided it NOT KNOWING THEY WERE TURKS. They were not mistreated or humiliated in any way whatsoever, and if you think that being captured was humiliating for them then you need to know they surrendered without shooting because we are allies and they knew we were US troops even if we didn't know who they were. Simple as that--they gave up to avoid the situation becoming ugly and then identified themselves. At this point senior leaders from the US and Turkey met to discuss how to get them back home. Oh, by the way, now that everyone knew they were Turks, there were a lot of highly armed Kurds in northern Iraq that wanted to shoot them which meant that getting them home safely was important and not easy. Do they mention any of this in the movie? I doubt it.

Now for all the Turks reading, how would your troops have handled it if they were occupying, say, Lebanon and raided a US team?

Aziz Abubakr and Serkan: This war is not for oil. We get less than 6% of our oil from Iraq now. Pretty expensive oil, huh? If you can't block terrorism with wars why is your Army fighting the Kurds in Eastern Turkey for the past 60 years? That Albay (Colonel) was not stripped naked, mistreated, or even asked questions once he identified himself as a Turkish soldier. From that point on the concern was getting them home safely because now the Kurds there knew they were Turkish soldiers.

Aziz: As I mentioned, we get less than 6% of our oil from Iraq. If it was about that there are a lot of better targets out there. You know Saddam did have WMD at least until after Desert Storm but there were a lot of unanswered questions about whether he had them leading up to the war. If we are such bullies, why are we protecting the innocent in Iraq from the thugs with guns? The Shia were brutally oppressed by Saddam and now the Kurds and Shia would love to wipe out the Sunni in Iraq. We are stopping the bullies who want to rule by force while cowards try to ambush us with roadside bombs because they are afraid to fight us. The people making the roadside bombs want us to leave so the thugs can take over and show you what real bullies are like. If we really wanted to kill innocent people as you suggest, it would be a lot easier to just drop a lot of bombs. Why do we have soldiers on the ground among the Iraqis? Simply because we are protecting the innocent and pursuing the thugs and you can't do that with bombs. Your calling us cowards and the whole claim about pilots dropping bombs from 30,000 feet is a pretty dumb argument because you are ignoring over 180,000 soldiers (8,500 UK, 3,300 South Korea, 3,000 Italy, 1,500 Poland, 950 Ukraine, etc.) on the ground seen side by side with Iraqis every day. Oh, and maybe you missed the elections...

Posted by PowerPointSamurai at February 14, 2006 02:41 PM

excuse me but who gave you the right to free the Iraqis. If something needs to be done, UN should make that decision, the willing countries should put together forces and whatever needs to be done can be done. You will now say "UN is unable to act". well if US is so wealthy and powerful make UN act. Instead of sending down troops and using your military power use your economic and political power to convince the nations of the world Iraq and iraqis need help. But thats impossible, because the causes presented were wrong. Nuclear threat? how many nuclear weapons are there in ex soviet countries and in balkans? why dont you try to clear the world of them before they get into the hands of terrorist rather than sending thousands of troops to Iraq. Only %6 of US might come from Iraq, but that is certainly not the right argument. US needs all the oil it can get for the future. Its getting Saudi and Kuwaiti oil, getting the Emirates, Umman and getting the oil of many other countries in the area, now it needs to secure oil fields in Iraq and Iran. Expensive, of course it is, US troops cant fight guerilla wars, no one really can. thats why you use intelligence and special forces, which we keep learning US hasnt been using very well. I am not anti-american, i lived there for 5 years, i love american life and all my friends in US are american, but like many Americans I find the reasons for this war to be wrong, and the American leaders corrupt. Like the corrupt leaders of Turkey. Bush is not any less radical from the right wing Turkish leaders or Iranian leaders, and his actions certainly show that.
About the movie. Who cares its a movie. As many people here said: american movies show Turkish and Arab people as drug-dealers or terrorist in how many movies? How many movies show the Irish as drunks, or French as idiots. They are just movies. Kurtlar Vadisi is not a true story, it only takes part of a true story and changes the events to start its story line. And it clearly states that. I dont see anything wrong with that, or showing prison tortures, these things are done, there are bad soldiers like bad people, doesnt mean all American soldiers are assholes, just shows that some are. just like midnight express shows some Turkish prison guards as assholes. I dont find midnight express to be offensive towards turkish people. because how many Turks talking today really now the prison conditions in turkey 20-30 years ago, or even now. I am sure some of that stuff happened and some didnt, but prison is not a great place to be, in Turkey or US

Posted by cmont at February 14, 2006 04:53 PM

just an addition. if this was done to better the lives of Iraqis, and please dont get me wrong I am not saying this to defend Saddam in any way, just saying there are worse places to be. Before desert storm Iraq had better literacy rates, standards of living, education and health service than many countries in the area. However during the 10 years of sanctions these conditions changed greatly. Still before the war Iraqis lived lives better than many many people all around the world. Like africa. Today US keeps talking about the danger Iran poses to the world, and what an opressive society it is, why doesnt it talk about Saudi Arabia, I have been to both countries and Saudi Arabia is 10 times more oppressive than Iran. While people in Iran party in private parties, drink, do not wear veils or head scarfs in offices, wear jeans outside, have satellite tv; none of this is possible in Saudi Arabia.
Helping people? Give me a break. Help Africa if you want to help somebody. The internatl tribal wars and the diseases there are much worse than anywhere else in the world. Spend your money on medicine and not soldiers, that would save many more people, and believe it or not more Americans. Soldiers wouldnt die and people would have much more respect for the American government, believe me, a United States cutting half its military spending and giving it out as humanitarian aid cannot be attacked by any terrorist, will not be attacked by any terrorist. Show mercy and affection and you will receive it. send troops all over the world and thats what you get

Posted by cmont at February 14, 2006 05:05 PM

See what this movie has done, and i havn't seen it yet. Its stretched the censorship of what is 'politically correct.' Thanks, Busey and Zane, its the best work you have done, ever, exploding this delusional self rightious bubble that america has puffed up around itself of being the conscience of the world. Better still, thanks to the shrewd turkish producers, writers and actors who have seen that the king (george) has no clothes. He is naked, and

Posted by Aziz Abubakr at February 14, 2006 07:22 PM

It seems from this movie that the vilest of anti-Semitic smears, i.e. Gary Busey's potrayal of an American Jewish Doctor selling the organs of Iraqi Children for transplants in the US & Israel*, is okay as long as it is done in a "progressive" i.e. anti-American cause!

*This has been a long standing smear popular among the Palestinians.

Posted by David All at February 14, 2006 09:44 PM

Why are the American screaming their indignation at this movie?? Have they forgotten how they applauded when Chuck Norris was blowing up Arabs in his Delta Force movies? The Americans are very sensitive when their warts are exposed.

Posted by Bismarck at February 15, 2006 01:03 AM

People People!!! Lets calm down for a moment and look at some facts:

First of all I am a Jewish American who has also served in the US Army (proudly!) and also I do love the Turkish people.

Lets clear some things up,

1.Most people have not probably seen this movie, so don't you think it is a bit ignorant to talk so matter of factly when you havent even seen it?

2.I have seen the good and the bad while serving the Armed Forces, and yes I can tell you most of these are the Finest Americans ready to give their lives for some serious values.

3. On the bad side, COME ON PEOPLE, there are TONS of IGNORANT "red-neck" people in the forces as well. America is so full of ignorant people they are in the Armed Forces as well! And I have seen on my own account the sheer ignorance and stupidity and ARROGANCE (the same as is represented in the BUSH administration) that they have treated people of other cultures.

4. It is a shame to call the Turks barbaric or anything of that sort. HAVE YOU ACTUALLY BEEN THERE? I can tell you that it was the turks that have always welcomed the Jews and we the Jewish people have flourished there. (Where do you think all the Jews went after the Spanish Inquisition??? To Turkey, one of the few places that would take us in with open arms). And on top of that look into some history....Any True Academic Historian readily admits that the Ottoman empire was BY FAR the most tolerant and protective of human rights and other religions and people THAN ANY OTHER EMPIRE IN HISTORY. THis is a fact that all historians can agree on. The Turks have a very proud tradition.

5. Education is missing here, please do yourselves a favor and STUDY WHAT YOU DO NOT KNOW!! We as Americans do not know anything of World culture/history, and barely know out own. It is through this that we can understand the "other side" and see that we are not the only ones with a point of view....it is arrogant to be ignorant.

6. And to be fair, although I do not like the Jewish Doctor portrayal (without seeing the movie) I have to say that LET US LOOK AT OUR OWN HOLLYWOOD and look at the REPEATED stereotypes of the Arabs as Terrorists (the number of movies are COUNTLESS). It is not fair, I know a lot of my Jewish commuinity get up in arms about anything remotely anti-semetic, but let's be fair and see how we have been painting the Middle East and Muslims (esp in Hollywood) as Evil for Decades! It is quite shameful for us as Americans to do so.

Well, I could go on and on, but I hope this could help out in any way.
I just urge anyone who is especially so upset and charged by these postings/the movie, to GO TO THE LIBRARY or even the Internet and JUST READ ABOUT THE OTHER SIDE OF THINGS!!! It will only make you a better person.
Love you all

Posted by steven at February 15, 2006 03:46 AM

Probably, this is the first time, you see that Americans and also Jewishes are bad man in a movie. You used to see bad characters as Russians, Arabics...

In my opinion, the film's aim is to show 4 big events based on a true story.

1) living bombs, (who wants to die, you will learn)
2) attack on civils in wedding celebration by American Soldiers.
3) killing of a religios leader of muslims.
4) arresting of Turkish soldiers by (ex-ally) USA.

These all are reality.
Neither less, nor more.

A dialog in America.

Girl : Where are you from?
My friend: Turkey.
Girl : in which state?

This is what most of americans know about the world or themselves.

They say you Muslims are terrorist, you believed.
They say you Usame Bin Laden is in Iraq, you believed.

They kill innocent people(women,children), you keep your silence.

Do you know anything about Islam?
Do you know anything about Turkey? (except Midnight Express)

Sure you have a few words to say,
WHAT THEY TEACHED YOU!

At this time a film had showed you, the other face of the WAR. You get SHOCKED.

Go on living with lies that you believe all are undiscussable truthes.

NO.

OPEN YOUR EYES A BIT MORE.

Posted by not important at February 15, 2006 01:08 PM

I am a Turk an so sorry to see some of comments against Turkiye and USA.

Instead of trying to destroy our relations we have to take some steps to strength our relationships. It is so hard to build a relationship but so easy to destroy.

In Turkiye no one likes Saddam and his regime. But USA could have not been attacked without taking UN confirmation (also be remember more than half of US people against this occupation). Also raping muslim women photos in Iraq by US soldiers and letting PKK terrorist group active in northern Iraq (helping them in 1990s actively like Nikaragua guerillas) make Turks to have some displeasure and make some nationalist to have hostility.

I personally did not watch the movie and will not. Some journalist in Turkiye criticized negatively. Our foreign minister said it is just a movie and he got same answer from US officials when criticized some US movies - episodes which have been showing Turks as members of gangs, terrorists etc.

Serkan

Posted by Serkan at February 15, 2006 01:33 PM

Serkan:
The UN does not have the authority to prevent nations from intervening when they perceive their security is threatened.

There were no rapes of Muslim women, that is enemy propaganda exactly designed to make you mad at us.

As you see, there are some people out there that would really like to see our ties and relations (Turkey and the US) destroyed. I wonder who benefits from destroying ties between us....

Posted by PowerPointSamurai at February 15, 2006 02:48 PM

"not important":

On point 2) There was no attack on a wedding as potrayed in that movie. There was an accidental bombing at one that you may remember, but NEVER an incident where US troops rushed into a wedding ceremony and shot civilians. That is a lie.

On point 3) What religious leader was killed by the US?

On point 4) We are STILL allies, or maybe you haven't heard of NATO or remember that Incirlik Air Base is in Turkey. Our enemies would really like to drive us apart and are playing to your fears by making you believe such rubbish about us as you posted here.

Posted by PowerPointSamurai at February 15, 2006 02:52 PM

Again with the movie comparisons...if you can read, go back up and read something before you post. There is a difference, and if you cannot see that difference, your head is solid rock.

"We as Americans do not know anything of World culture/history, and barely know out own"

Speak for yourself pal. I don't ask you to represent me or gauge my knowledge...save your sweeping generalizations.

To 'not important':

Let's dissect your over-simplified "truths" of the movie.

1. living bombs: you mean people that strap explosives to their body and detonate them in front of mosques killing women and children? Yeah, look to Islam for that one.

2. attack on wedding celebration: Oh you mean that wedding in the middle of the desert on the Syrian border? The one where they were firing fully automatic weapons in the air as our helicopters were flying over at 2:45am? Yeaaah, I don't know why our troops didn't know that was a wedding.
In the movie however, our troops were on foot and waiting for them to fire their weapons so they could barge in and kill innocent people.

Hmmm, a little different isn't it? Yes, one was a tragic but explainable mistake, the other is premeditated murder. If that's your idea of truth you're a lost cause. If the U.S. wanted to kill innocent people, we'd have just saved ourselves the effort and carpet bombed the entire country.

3. killing a muslim religious leader: who was that? is this any different than one misguided teen killing a christian priest in Italy because he was offended by a drawing?

4. arrest of turkish soldiers: yep that was the truth, the WHY of it is different. It's been said, and since you can only type but not read, you must not have seen it. Here it is from PowerPointSamurai's post:

"The other parts that were interesting were that this movie was motivated by the raid in which 173d Airborne troops nabbed 11 Turkish SF guys in Kirkuk in 2003. The Turks were irate, and claimed to have every right to be there and stated they had been there since after Desert Storm. I guess it didn't bother them that they weren't part of this war, or that 173d had no way of knowing who they were other than a bunch of guys armed to the teeth...and oh yeah, they put a hit out on the Kurdish mayor of Kirkuk. But never mind, blame us."

That's pretty much how I undertand it happened as well.

So you say we only say what we're taught to say eh? How about you, you were there during all those incedents? You have first-hand knowledge? No. You're just mindlessly droning on about what you've been told...and by a movie no less.

Posted by heralder at February 15, 2006 02:55 PM

Steven:

About discussing the movie: We are only discussing elements of the movie clearly known without seeing it.

Lastly, I am glad you consider yourself so enlightened that you can lecture the rest of us about being ignorant or arrogant on this topic, then turn around and say you are not pleased with the portrayal of the doctor in this movie. I for one can be displeased with both--I'm not giving them a pass because some jackasses in Hollywood have also been wrong.

Posted by PowerPointSamurai at February 15, 2006 02:57 PM

Cmont said "excuse me but who gave you the right to free the Iraqis." and "well if US is so wealthy and powerful make UN act."

Are you serious? We did it because we considered it to be right, and for some of us a moral obligation. The UN is hopelessly corrupt and that was clearly demonstrated as they took bribes while allowing Saddam to continue to screw over his people.

As for the nuclear threat, a lot more is being done on that than you know. We are working in cooperation with the Russians to ensure their weapons are all secured under their control, as well as their nuclear materials. In fact, there is a program where we are buying nuclear reactor fuel from the Russians from some of their old warheads. What you also don't get about my 6% argument is that if the war was about the oil, we are consuming more than that sustaining operations in Iraq for a NET LOSS. Do you realize how much fuel an M1 tank burns? How about an Chinook helicopter or a F-18?

You are right that there were worse places by the metrics you used for people to be than in Iraq before 1991. You are also correct about Saudi Arabia, but as a friend and ally, we can hold more influence than an enemy. They and Kuwait have begun some significant change since the war in Iraq.

You are also correct that Africa needs a lot of help. No argument there. My argument though is that we can help the Iraqis here and now. Africa is a much larger problem and the governments are really part of the problem (i.e. governments stealing all the aid). Your idea about cutting defense spending and turning it all into humanitarian aid is interesting, but won't stop terrorists. The US has been giving aid for decades. Unfortunately sometimes handouts only yield resentment. What Africa needs is not more handouts, but the tools to sustain itself in the long term and take care of itself. The more we give away to Africa (i.e. food, etc.) the more we make them dependant on aid. If you are really interested in this, and truly care about helping Africa, check out what Bono and Bill and Melinda Gates are doing. I'm not much of a Bill Gates fan, but I have to give the guy credit on this one.

Posted by PowerPointSamurai at February 15, 2006 03:08 PM

to powerpoint:

well it's nice to see an American care for my comment free from the chains and i hope should answer the next question.

do you have words to say about English soldiers that are hitting children in IRAQ?

do you know who is SADDAM HUSEYIN? (I hate him as all Arabic dictators) The man who supported by America during the IRAN-IRAQ war. He got the power and tried to the leader of the Arabic world, dead sure the leader of petroleum. then stopped by America.

and do you who are TALEBANS. The ... supported by America against to Russia.

America always want to conrol the way goin to patrol.

not the war against to terrorism, to get the control of patrol.

no matter who kill the innocent people. they have died.

sorry for my English.

Posted by not important at February 15, 2006 04:07 PM

"Are you serious? We did it because we considered it to be right, and for some of us a moral obligation. The UN is hopelessly corrupt and that was clearly demonstrated as they took bribes while allowing Saddam to continue to screw over his people."

------

You see how you force yourself to blind out the facts and rewrite history ? That, my friend, is the hollywood way of defining history. And the turkish are just copying it!

You went to war with iraq to free the iraqi people? Are you serious? Do you seriously intend to tell me that Bushs holy idea was initially to simply do something good to the world?
Well, maybe I was watching the wrong hollywood movie cause I thought it was about "undoubtable" proof of WMD in Iraq? A iminate threat to the US public!
The US insulted everyone in the world who questioned their "Proof" (which consisted of silly cheap satelite images showing "NOTHING")and didnt even want to WAIT untill the IAEA hat finished its report.
And during the recent months we even learned that war-plans were printed before Powell held his silly speech in front of the UN council. And we know that proofs had been deliberately overestimated.
SO WHAT THE FXXX DO YOU TELL ME ABOUT THE DESIRE TO HELP THE POOR IRAQIS? Are you nuts? How stupid do you think we are? Or is the propaganda in your country already so sophisticated that you yourselves get brainwashed?

You went to war because of a lie. THERE WERE NO WMD in Iraq. The iraqis are happy that Saddam is gone, but they are not happy the americans came instead. And after all, who exactly made Saddam so powerful in the first place? You know it yourselves: Iraq was highly supported during the war with iran by the US government, you created that monster, not the Iraqis. Same story is unfortunately true for the Taleban, which you thought should be funded to fight back the russians.
You send silly teens to Iraq, who had never seen anything else than their neighbourhood and you tell me they are capable to act culturally sensitive. Man, they dont even speak a second language or even had seen a desert before. They appear as big boys but mentally they are only children with guns, not capable to cope with situations of stress or those, where cultural diplomacy is required.

And now you want credit for a war based on lie? for killing a beast you created? And you insult us by believing we should eat your rethorical diarrhea? Oh boy, dont post this stuff on the net, you will not be able to travel abroad if you continue to do so.

But maybe you are just pittyful funny.

Posted by Schnapsauge at February 15, 2006 05:01 PM

The main reason u.s. went to war in Iraq
(actually it was forced to go to war...) is the zionists, whether they are christians or jews...
u.s. army is a zionist instrument for a new world order.
Despite all their current strength, u.s. army will face a catastrophic defeat in mideast and will be annihilated. This will be followed by the invasion of the primary zionist entity.
Enemies of Allah and his messenger will be greatly humiliated on those days...There is security for them even if they escape to Mars...

Posted by G19 at February 15, 2006 06:40 PM

Information on WMD in Iraq :

http://www.worldthreats.com/middle_east/talk_tikriti.htm

http://www.nysun.com/article/27110

http://ace.mu.nu/archives/134185.php

http://ace.mu.nu/archives/047453.php

www.weeklystandard.com/Content/ Public/Articles/000/000/006/550kmbzd.asp

www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2005/11/16/122915.shtml

http://frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=10111

As for what Iraqis think about American troops in their country, why don't we talk to 2 of them:

http://www.mnf-iraq.com/Transcripts/Slides/060119NajimlettertoCasey.pdf

http://www.mudvillegazette.com/archives/004167.html

Posted by Adriane at February 15, 2006 10:39 PM

To G19 and the other "Zionist"-bashers:
It may surprise you to learn that Theodor Herzl, the founder of Zionism, was perfectly content for Israel to remain part of the Ottoman Empire. In fact, his initial proposal to the Zionists was that they offer to revamp the Empire's finances in payment for the land. (I'd offer a link, but I don't have one handy, and the document's in German anyway.)
Obviously, the situation changed after WWI and WWII, and some of Herzl's other proposals, like moving to Africa or South America, fell by the wayside after his death. But I thought you should know that Zionism as a formal movement was never intended to be hostile to the Arab world.

Besides, aren't Jews supposed to be protected under Sharia as People of the Book and fellow descendents of Abraham?

Posted by Rose B. at February 16, 2006 09:26 AM

power point samurai.
agree with UN corruption, agree with africa comments. humanitarian help if given the wrong way will make Africa dependent and will not improve things over there. You need to improve infrastructure in every area of life. Problem is: US is giving aids to governments that are corrupt and expect them to do the business, also aid is not nearly enough in medicine which they need urgently, for the better of the whole worlds future. all i am saying is If US made he same commitment in sending people to Africa rather than money, they would be welcomed and helped by the whole world, although not all african countries and their corrupt leaders. I spend about 3-4 months in south africa every year so i know a little bit about the geography. i also know US backs up the wrong politicians all the time and messes things up even more. If half the soldiers in Iraq are in Africa right now, providing security, helping the infrastructure and improving conditions believe me it would do a lot more good, and like Iraq action could be taken there right way.
Bushs plan is oil has absolutely nothing to do with the deficit US is showing in right now. first of all, they thought they could have stability much quicker, part one of the problem, second, they know in 10 years time when oil is much much more expensive and rare it will be more than worth it to lose some money, and lives also.
i think everyone knows the reasons for this war was wrong, its just that some can admit it and some cant

Posted by cmont at February 16, 2006 10:09 AM

I am open to a discussion but what the hell are all the wannabe jihadists doing here?

Posted by Schnapsauge at February 16, 2006 04:43 PM

There are no insurgents or insurgency in Iraq. Those are the people who are defending their country against the evil us army (composed of subhumanoids; sadists, murderers, rapists). The only terrorists in Iraq are filthy americans. Turkish movie clearly showed this fact. I congratulate Turks for this movie. Facts are facts.

Guys, we are not jealous of your [profanity deleted] 'freedom'.
Because you don't have it. Things will get worse for you. Dubya is gonna microchip all of you and put cameras into your houses. After all, he gets orders from some god, he claims...

america is sinking, just like titanic.
game is over!

Posted by Moskit at February 17, 2006 07:12 PM

Ha ha ha! See, and here I was thinking Islamic radicals weren't funny.

Posted by heralder at February 17, 2006 09:09 PM

"not important": I have no idea what you are talking about with respect to the allegation of British troops hitting children. If this is true, this is out of the norm and they will be punished.

With regards to supporting Saddam, he was the buffer protecting the rest of the Arab world from the Iranians at the time. We supported him only in as much as he could hold off the Iranians if they tried to take over the region, but not cause a lot of mischief on his own, or at least that was the theory. A lot of people say that we Americans push our way in and do too much for other countries rather than allow them to handle the problems themselves. All of the countries in the region thought that having Saddam buffer against the Iranians until the threat subsided was the way to handle it and all supported him for that reason.

As for the Taliban, they were only a tiny faction of the people we were supporting to liberate their country from the Soviets. Note that we did not win the war in Afghanistan ourselves, it was again some of these same people (then called the Northern Alliance) who defeated the Taliban. They too fought the Soviets. Our failure in Afghanistan before was failing to support the Northern Alliance and some of the other good groups after the Soviets left in the first place, rather than let Taliban thugs take over and dominate everyone else.

Note that Afghanistan has no oil and very poor resources of its own, so petrol cannot be the overall motive.

Posted by PowerPointSamurai at February 18, 2006 06:37 PM

Schnapsauge: You are throwing allegations at me without the slightest evidence.

Saddam DID have during Desert Storm, and every intel agency from every country you can name believed he still had them in 2003. Saddam himself said they had them, but it looks like he was bluffing.

You also forget that just after Desert Storm, Saddam's nuclear program was discovered to be far more advanced than anyone had a clue about. They also had that South African Supergun project well under way. The point here is that the lesson after Desert Storm was to err on the side of more capability rather than be surprised.

BTW, we did not make Saddam powerful in the first place as you allege. He did that. Our support for Saddam during the Iran-Iraq war was miniscule. Virtually all of his military equipment was Russian or French during Desert Storm, and the new stuff he bought between the wars was illegally obtained via third countries like Syria. If you say we supported him more, prove it with some dollar figures or military equipment vs. from other sources.

As for the Taliban, we did not support the Taliban, the Taliban were just one of dozens or hundreds of factions fighting the Sovi