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Trey Jackson has the video.
Kudos to the Boston Herald, the first major media outlet in the US to respond to Dick Durbin:
And the DoD isn't standing idly by while the Senator from Illinois likens the behavior of US Soldiers to that of Nazis either:`Nazi' comment disgraceful
By Boston Herald editorial staff
Friday, June 17, 2005The second highest ranking Democrat in the Senate has compared American servicemen and women to Nazis on the floor of that body. Has political debate sunk so low that a comment that hideous can be made by Sen. Richard Durbin (D-Ill.) without repercussions?
Sen. Trent Lott (R-Miss.) lost his leadership position for the lesser if still odious offense of praising Strom Thurmond's presidential campaign which had taken place decades earlier.
``If I read this ... and did not tell you that it was an FBI agent describing what Americans had done to prisoners in their control, you would most certainly believe this must have been done by Nazis, Soviets in their gulags, or some mad regime - Pol Pot or others,'' Durbin said of Guantanamo ``abuses'' like ratcheting up the air conditioning in detainees' cells.
When Amnesty International makes such comparisons it irreversibly damages its credibility. When a U.S. senator does so, he damages the institution and the country he serves.
Durbin must go.
Two days after Sen. Dick Durbin, D-Ill., likened the U.S. military's conduct at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, to the brutal practices of the Nazi death camps and Josef Stalin's gulags, the Pentagon spokesman yesterday said such comments "reflect a real ignorance" of conditions at the detention facility for terrorism suspects.It will be interesting to see how many news organizations cover the response to Durbin's comments - since Al Jazeera was the only one covering the actual comments.<...>
Pentagon spokesman Larry DiRita did not refer to Durbin by name. "We invite more members to go down to Guantanamo and see what's going on because what's going on down there is not the way it's being described by certain members of Congress," he said.
DiRita said the military would facilitate legislators' visits to Guantanamo to improve their understanding of the detention facility. "Comments that are being made up on Capitol Hill about what's happening at Guantanamo reflect a real ignorance of what's really going on down there," DiRita said.
Durbin press aide Joe Shoemaker said the senator has never visited Guantanamo.
In his floor statement, Durbin quoted from an FBI agent's letter criticizing some of the harsh interrogation techniques used on terrorist suspects at Guantanamo. Durbin added that those actions could have been done "by Nazis, Soviets in their gulags, or some mad regime ? Pol Pot or others ? that had no concern for human beings."
Will Durbin get to Gitmo? Scott Ott thinks he should. (Update: Note that Scott's satire preceded the actual DoD invitation - not the first time he's anticipated reality. Scrappleface: tomorrow's news today!)
It's crowded down there though, and I don't mean in the cells. Here's another item that hasn't gotten much press attention.
Arguably, no detention facility in the history of warfare has been more transparent or received more scrutiny than Guantanamo. Last year the department declassified highly sensitive memorandum on interrogation techniques. Unfortunately, they were documents that are useful to terrorist operatives, and we posted them on the Internet specifically to set the record straight about U.S. policies and practices."400 separate media visits to Guantanamo Bay by more than 1,000 journalists... 180 congressional representatives... continuous access to the International Committee of the Red Cross, whose representatives meet privately with the detainees" not to mention, puppet shows.There have been nearly 400 separate media visits to Guantanamo Bay by more than 1,000 journalists. Additionally, some 180 congressional representatives have visited the facility.
We provide continuous access to the International Committee of the Red Cross, whose representatives meet privately with the detainees.
Allegations of abuse at Guantanamo, as at any other U.S. military facility, have been thoroughly investigated. Any wrongdoing is -- wrongdoers are being held accountable. The U.S. military has instituted numerous reforms of the conduct of detainee operations, with a renewed emphasis on standards and training.
Update: Via LGF, the Chicago Tribune is reporting on "conservative ire" over the comments from the voice of the people of Illinois
WASHINGTON -- With his unassuming Midwestern demeanor and genial bearing, Dick Durbin is no one's vision of a political street fighter.But the key quote is this:Yet Illinois' senior senator--who is growing in stature as a national Democratic voice and a font of strategic and communications advice for a party eager to regain its footing--found himself on the receiving end of Republican outrage this week.
By Thursday, conservatives? anger at what they portrayed as a comparison between the U.S. and some of history?s most murderous regimes was boiling.
Update2 : via Michelle Malkin, the NY Times is covering the "Republican demands".
Leading Republicans demanded an apology from Senator Richard J. Durbin on Thursday, two days after he compared abusive treatment of prisoners at Guantᮡmo Bay to the war crimes of oppressive regimes like the Nazis and the Khmer Rouge.As usual, a huge collection of links at Michelle's.
We can see the conservative Republican [DELETED] at work again. They lift one paragraph out of Durbin's speech and assert that Durbin has equated our country with the Nazis, etc. It's par for the course with the Republican [DELETED], who refuse to face the FACTS about the torture and perversion that were perpetrated as a matter of American policy.
That is what Durbin was talking about. In times gone by, Americans opposed torture because it is wrong. It is against what we are. The perversion stuff was just sick, and the idea that it was part of a policy ought to have the so-called patriotic conservatives hopping mad. But nope, they're mad at anyone who objects to it, which shows the utter bankruptcy of their claims to uphold "values" of any kind.
The denunciations of Durbin are classic blame-the-messenger tactics, along with classic smear-merchant tactics of the American Right Wing.
Posted by Willysnout at June 17, 2005 07:31 PMAre you out of your mind? Have you read what Durbin said? Tell you what, please list the acts of torture specifically committed at Guantanimo. Then we can compare them to the acts committed by Nazis and Stalinists. Durbin claimed you wouldnt be able to distinguish them. Up to the challenge?
Posted by Mark Buehner at June 17, 2005 08:59 PMI didn't think the dems could sink any lower, but wow. It is really possible that by 2008 they will have liquidated themselves as a political party, and republicans will have to seperate themselves into two parties.
Posted by Josh at June 17, 2005 09:05 PMJosh,
Do not underestimate the ability of politicians to stick their foot in their mouths.
And claim made them do it, or it is not really their foot.
Posted by Tim at June 17, 2005 09:11 PMThis is the paragraph from Durbin's speech that has gotten the insane right-wing to broadcast their insanity to the country:
If I had read this to you and did not tell you that it was an FBI agent describing what Americans had done to prisoners in their control, you would most certainly believe this must have been done by Nazis, Soviets in their gulags or some mad regime – Pol Pot or others – that had no concern for human beings. Sadly, that is not the case. This was the action of Americans in the treatment of their prisoners.
And here is a transcript of Durbin's speech. Yes, Mark, I have read it. Have you?
http://talkleft.com/Gitmofloorstatement061405.pdf
Durbin did not, as was wrongly stated on this website, call for closing Gitmo or withdrawing from Iraq. He was condemning the use of torture by American forces. He was absolutely right to do so. I really think it speaks volumes about the American "patriotic" right wing that they would approve of torture. Of course, they will deny that they approve, but when you deny that it occurred or minimize it, and then smear those who condemn it, you are in my opinion approving of it.
All of this is ironic, because the right wing continually bleats about "moral relativism." But what can possibly be more relativist than approving of torture as long as it's our forces who are doing the torture? If you thrill to the specifics, I suggest that you go read the Taguba report. It's all there with respect to Abu Ghraib. I'll even be so helpful as to provide you with a link.
http://www.agonist.org/annex/taguba.htm
With respect to Gitmo, the military has not done the equivalent of a Taguba report there. The place to go for accounts of torture is to the ACLU's website, where they've posted the government documents obtained under the Freedom of Information Act. Don't worry, going to the ACLU's site won't cause liberalism to rub off. Other [DELETED] have done it.
http://action.aclu.org/torturefoia/
Now, of course, the usual right-wing response to FOIA stuff is that those documents take the word of "the terrorists" held at Gitmo, the implication being that nothing that any detainee ever says can be believed. In fact, the FOIA stuff has plenty from FBI agents as well, and the Taguba report on Abu Ghraib found ways to accept the testimony of some detainees.
The only way you can dismiss this stuff is by being a coward who is afraid of the truth. Unfortunately, that's the position the American right wing has put itself in.
Posted by Willysnout at June 17, 2005 09:22 PMI heard there was no question-and-answer session after the puppet show, no colorful pamphlet listing library books for future reading on the topics of puppets and puppetry, and that the detainee's repeated requests for "Gummi Bears and pint cartons of orange drink and maybe some Neopolitan ice cream with sprinkles" were denied.
Animals. Stop the insane broadcast of insanity, you insaniacs!
Posted by Cover Me, Porkins at June 17, 2005 09:35 PMTake note fellow patriots- you are watching the end of a political party.
Posted by nope at June 17, 2005 09:35 PMWow Willy. If I understand the complaints of the [DELETED] right, it is comparing our Military to tyrannical inhuman regimes like the Nazis and others. I don't here them saying the "torture" was good. As a matter of fact, the FBI agent who wrote the report from which Durbin read, says that it did not contain the embellishments[torture] of Durbin. It only detailed the fact that the prisoner of war was chained to the floor. Durbin is a [DELETED], which if you had any courage you would admit, and is not interested in the truth but the reacquisition of political power. This is the MO of the liberal--lie, cheat, and do whatever it takes to gain power even if it means aiding the enemy. American policy on "torture" FYI is that the most that can be done to Prisoners of War is bump them, deprive them of sleep, and in general harass them. How do I know this? I am one of the "Nazis" that Durbin is referring to.
Posted by Chaps at June 17, 2005 09:52 PMHow can anyone try to justify his comments? Fine he is afraid of our image being tarnished by torture. Who isnt? The fact is we ARE NOT torturing these people. BUT, when you compare your country to despotic regimes and Nazis...omg it is unbelievable. This man has done more damage to the image of this country than Abu Graib. The second highest ranking Dem in the Senate saying we are as bad as Hitler...and no Democrats condemn this? They believe it!??!? Holy Crap! I may never vote Demo again.
Posted by Anguisel at June 17, 2005 09:54 PM"If I had read this to you and did not tell you that it was an FBI agent describing what Americans had done to prisoners in their control, you would most certainly believe this must have been done by Nazis, Soviets in their gulags or some mad regime – Pol Pot or others – that had no concern for human beings"
Willy, why are you ducking my question? Please list the actions that Durbin claims you would conclude would only be carried out by nazis, soviets, or pol pot.
Posted by Mark Buehner at June 17, 2005 10:00 PMAnother question: we all know many nazi soldiers were tried and imprisoned for their actions, often against prisoners. Soldiers are not required to carry out illegal or immoral orders.
Should the soldiers who conducted the interrogations by tried for War Crimes for the list of interview techniques you are about to provide for us?
Posted by Mark Buehner at June 17, 2005 10:11 PMHey, Willy, keep it up. You and your terrorist - supporting ilk are spelling the doom for your once great party. "America is the bad guy" - what a great political strategy. Good luck with that.
Bwahahahahahaha
Posted by fugazi at June 17, 2005 10:13 PMAs for the Taguba report while it does cover very specific and sometimes horrific acts, that have been roundly condemmed by every Milblogger and conservative blogger that I read (100+), it is only the beginning. What the Left forever fails to mention is that the system worked, the abusers have been exposed and punished as the evil doers they where. Extra human efforts have been put forth by those the Left villifies to help prevent these actions from reoccuring, while still getting the job done.
Now the best the Left can do is claim that 5 instances of holy book "abuse" and some criminal being chained to floor for a while.
If the Left would just learn that some gentle constructive critism rather than extensive hyperbole is far more effective at winnining friends and influening the opposition. Naw that would entail dialog and respect, can't have that.
Dave
Posted by dave at June 17, 2005 10:16 PMWilly - you really need to try answering Mark's questions.
Also:
"Durbin did not, as was wrongly stated on this website, call for closing Gitmo or withdrawing from Iraq."
Where on this website?
And
"And here is a transcript of Durbin's speech. Yes, Mark, I have read it. Have you?"
Willy, this post opens with a link to the video of Durbin's speech. Do you read the posts you comment on?
Posted by Greyhawk at June 17, 2005 10:17 PMAs a matter of fact, the FBI agent who wrote the report from which Durbin read, says that it did not contain the embellishments[torture] of Durbin. It only detailed the fact that the prisoner of war was chained to the floor. Durbin is a [DELETED], which if you had any courage you would admit
No, Chaps, I'm afraid that you are the [DELETED]. Here is the FBI document that Durbin cited. He quoted it word for word. Not that the truth EVER matters to the right-wing in this country. "You want the truth? You can't handle the truth."
http://www.aclu.org/torturefoia/released/FBI.121504.5053.pdf
Note to all: Believe it or not, I do have a life and one of the things I must do is go get a haircut. Yes, liberals get haircuts. I'll be back with the answers to the rest of what you've raised.
Posted by Willysnout at June 17, 2005 10:56 PMI'm looking literally at the document. I'd like specifically spelled out which allegation constitute torture one would conclude a Nazi to have carried out. I would hate to jump to conclusions about which aspects are the most horrific.
Posted by Mark Buehner at June 17, 2005 11:22 PMThe biggest question hasn't been asked about Turbin Durbin. Where and when did he obtain the so called FBI agents (one man's opinion) document? Aren't those classified? How many [DELETED] anti-American operatives are still holding out at the FBI. The place is so full of holes it looks like a flour sifter. Find the source and put them and Turbin on trial for treason. No BS that the public has a right to know, they do not have a right to know and a traitor is a traitor even, or especially if, they work under cover at the FBI.
Posted by scrapiron at June 17, 2005 11:50 PMThose poor terrorist at Gitmo. Imagine being deprived of sleep by having loud music playing while you are trying to nap. Wait a minute, wasn't that done for days on end in Waco?
I suppose that's different because that was done under a democratic Administration by Janet Reno.
I don't remember Durbin or any other democrat in Congress addressing that issue back then.
Pure HYPOCRISY.
Ben
Hey Chaps, I'm still waiting for the first-ever wingnut retraction of a lie. I won't be expecting anything, and I certainly won't be holding my breath. You and your kind run from the truth like cockroaches from a light. I notice that you call yourself "one of the Nazis that Durbin is referring to." Does this mean you are a guard in a U.S.-run military prison? Tell me, are you people still torturing prisoners? Inquiring minds want to know.
Now, on to some answers to questions.
Willy, this post opens with a link to the video of Durbin's speech. Do you read the posts you comment on?
Yes, I do, Greyhawk. I asked him if he'd bothered to read Durbin's speech because anyone who had done so would realize that the wingnut characterization of Durbin's comments is false.
(my statement) "Durbin did not, as was wrongly stated on this website, call for closing Gitmo or withdrawing from Iraq."
(greyhaw's response) Where on this website?
On June 16th, a liar calling itself "jordan" posted the following:
We needed to see a counterweight to Durbin's "lets cut and run" speech, and we got it in the form of Lt.Gen Conway at today's Pentagon press briefing. He knocked my socks off.
The phrase "cut and run" in this context means to withdraw our troops right away no matter what, i.e., cut our losses and run away. At no point in his speech did Durbin advocate "cutting and running," as jordan falsely accused him of doing.
Please list the actions that Durbin claims you would conclude would only be carried out by nazis, soviets, or pol pot.
I'm afraid you'll have to go through the Taguba report and the FOIA material yourself. Of course, maybe you won't call sodomizing a prisoner with a broomstick handle torture. Maybe you call this fun. I say, do it on your own time with someone who's into it as much as you are.
Should the soldiers who conducted the interrogations by tried for War Crimes for the list of interview techniques you are about to provide for us?
I'm not sure of the answer to that. The military has held a few Potemkin trials concluding with wrist slaps. I could be wrong about this, but I believe that the Nuremberg Trials were all about the Nazi leaders as opposed to the enlisted people. I think Bush and Rumsfeld, and people at the senior policymaking level should be investigated for ordering the torture of prisoners. If they issued the orders or failed to prevent the torture, then they should be tried for war crimes.
The biggest question hasn't been asked about Turbin Durbin. Where and when did he obtain the so called FBI agents (one man's opinion) document? Aren't those classified?
Hey wingnut idiot: Look at the document. It says right at the top that it's not classified. How stupid are you, anyway?
As for the Taguba report while it does cover very specific and sometimes horrific acts, that have been roundly condemmed by every Milblogger and conservative blogger that I read
You people constantly deny or minimize the torture that has occurred. My favorite was when [DELETED]News [DELETED] Bill O'Leilly joined in with [DELETED] Rush Limbaugh in calling the torture merely "fraternity pranks." Makes you wonder what fraternities they went to. I didn't get a chemlight up the rear end at my frat house. Tell me, [DELETED}, was it fun?
Posted by Willysnout at June 18, 2005 01:08 AMWillie dude,
You sound like an [DELETED].
He said Nazis. He said Gulag. He said Pol Pot. Nobody forced him to say it, (well maybe movon or the great Americans at the aclu put the paper in his hand and told him to read it). I know you [DELETED] are used to the media filter screening out the worst of the America-bashing spewed by the democrat party, but you're going to have to learn to live with the idea that once in a while one of these socialist droids is going to get caught crapping on the country, and those of us in the real world are not going to like it. As to context, do you go digging for context when a republican [DELETED] says something stupid? Is that what you and your buds did when Lott spouted his drivel about Thurmond? No, I didn't think so. You should take a step back, and see that in time of war, the headchoppers don't need help from clowns like Durbinladen. And you should really go back to school and slap your history teacher because dude, you've been brainwashed.
Have a nice day.
Hey [DELETED], can you read? Go read his speech. I've posted the link. He didn't call the United States or our military a bunch of Nazis. He said the sorts of things done at Gitmo were out of the Nazi playbook, and that's absolutely true. In typical [DELETED] fashion, you people hate the truth.
Posted by Willysnout at June 18, 2005 01:41 AMCould someone please point out to the good Senator that millions of people in the world live in 100 degree weather all their lives.
And when they encounter air conditioning they don't like it.
Hot weather is uncomfortable, it is not torture.
Posted by JFarr at June 18, 2005 01:51 AMOuch!
Sorry Willie, didn't mean to hit a nerve.
I guess he didn't really say those things. I guess c-span fabricated the video. Those [DELETED]! Can't even believe my own lying eyes anymore. And I guess you're one of those hyper-nuanced guys who don't know what the meaning of "is" is. Good thing there's always one of you around with a shovel after a dim bulb hack like Durbin decides to tell everyone what's what.
Oh, and back to slapping your history teacher. The sorts of things in the Nazi "playbook" were: systematic extermination through forced labor and starvation, medical experimentation, and territorial conquest. The labor and starvation was inflicted on innocent civilians, women and children as well as men. Is that how you and Durbin classify the islamofascists at Gitmo? Innocent civilians? Man, you are REALLY nuanced!
Like I've been suspecting, you people get off on it. Hey, lots of people do anal sex too. So who can object to American soliders shoving chemlights and broomsticks into the rectums of POWs? And lots of people play "horsey" with the kids, so that 75-year-old Iraqi woman who was ridden like a donkey by the U.S. soldier was having a great time. Nice try, JFarr.
Posted by Willysnout at June 18, 2005 02:07 AMThe sorts of things in the Nazi "playbook" were: systematic extermination through forced labor and starvation, medical experimentation, and territorial conquest. The labor and starvation was inflicted on innocent civilians, women and children as well as men. Is that how you and Durbin classify the islamofascists at Gitmo?
I recommend that you actually do something that [DELETED] rarely do. Sit down and read. Try a book about Dachau, which was Hitler's first concentration camp, located in a suburb of Munich. It's purpose in the early years was to torture and humiliate people and then release them into the civilian population as a way to keep people quiet.
That's what Abu Ghraib was all about. The U.S. soliders humiliated the detainees there. Raped them. Smeared them with their own feces. Made the men have sex with each other. Then took pictures of it all. The whole idea was to terrorize them, then send them out into Baghdad to terrify the population. Right smack out of the Nazi playbook. And it almost worked, until some people blew the whistle on this perverted little scheme.
Posted by Willysnout at June 18, 2005 02:11 AMWillysnout, you are obfusticating, spinning, and wasting everyones time. Considering that you have loudly instructed others to read the source material, I assume you know it as well. [DELETED]
Let me spell this out to you simply, since I have already attempted to give you a chance to defend Durbins charges in a systematic manner and you have declined to do so:
""I'm afraid you'll have to go through the Taguba report and the FOIA material yourself. Of course, maybe you won't call sodomizing a prisoner with a broomstick handle torture. ""
As you _well know_, nowhere does Durbin refer to the Taguba report in connection with his Nazi charges. Here is what YOU SAID, about what Durbin was citing:
"No, Chaps, I'm afraid that you are the liar. Here is the FBI document that Durbin cited. He quoted it word for word. Not that the truth EVER matters to the right-wing in this country. "You want the truth? You can't handle the truth."
http://www.aclu.org/torturefoia/released/FBI.121504.5053.pdf"
FBI report. No Major General Antonio M. Taguba. The truth matters to you correct? Nowhere does the FOIA FBI report mention sodomy. Nowhere does it mention broomsticks. AS YOU WELL KNOW. Now let me further prove to you that Durbin was directly quoting the FBI source, using his own words, which YOU CITED:
"Let me read to you what one FBI agent saw. And I quote from his report:
On a couple of occasions, I entered interview rooms to find a detainee chained hand and
foot in a fetal position to the floor, with no chair, food or water. Most times they urinated
or defecated on themselves, and had been left there for 18-24 hours or more. On one
occasion, the air conditioning had been turned down so far and the temperature was so
cold in the room, that the barefooted detainee was shaking with cold....On another
occasion, the [air conditioner] had been turned off, making the temperature in the
unventilated room well over 100 degrees. The detainee was almost unconscious on the
floor, with a pile of hair next to him. He had apparently been literally pulling his hair out
throughout the night. On another occasion, not only was the temperature unbearably hot,
but extremely loud rap music was being played in the room, and had been since the day
before, with the detainee chained hand and foot in the fetal position on the tile floor.
If I read this to you and did not tell you that it was an FBI agent describing what
Americans had done to prisoners in their control, you would most certainly believe this must have
been done by Nazis, Soviets in their gulags, or some mad regime -- Pol Pot or others -- that had no
concern for human beings. Sadly, that is not the case. This was the action of Americans in the
treatment of their prisoners."
http://talkleft.com/Gitmofloorstatement061405.pdf
YOUR SOURCE. Lets examine. Durbin is talking _specifically_ about the FBI agents recollection? AM I CORRECT? He is talking SPECIFICALLY about that list of actions in THAT quotation. Hence he says _"If I read this to you"_ . AM I CORRECT? I there any mention of sexual abuse in what Durbin DIRECTLY CITED?
Please enlighten me. You claim to stand for honesty, lets see you prove it. Did Dick Durbin, or did he not state that the actions in the above passage would be something one would assume the Nazis, Soviets, or Pol Pot perpetrated when he said:
"If I read this to you and did not tell you that it was an FBI agent describing what
Americans had done to prisoners in their control, you would most certainly believe this must have
been done by Nazis, Soviets in their gulags, or some mad regime -- Pol Pot or others"
If you have a shred of intellectual honesty or honor in you, you will reply with either an explanation or an apology. Not more misdirection, irrelevance, and lies.
Yes Willie,
I'm sure what the renouned historian Durbin had in mind when he said "Pol Pot" was that first 3 months at Dachau. You're really swinging from the heels here. Unfortunately, the result when you close your eyes and take a mighty hack is the usual swing and miss. I wonder why a guy like you always wants to assume the worst about the motives of his countrymen. I guess you never learned the good things about your country. You might want to shut your yap for five minutes and think about that. That way you can quit while you're way behind. And you should also learn the first rule of holes: when you're in one, quit digging. Oh, and the repeated anal sex references? Maybe you should lighten up on that stuff. You're starting to creep me out. Willie.
This retired Steelworker will not be voting for a Democrat again in this lifetime. nor the next. Christ I cannot believe the party of Kennedy is now the part of Durbin.
I just donated to a real Kennedy, happens to be running for Senator in Minnesota, donation made in Durbin's name
Posted by vero at June 18, 2005 04:32 AMSenator Durbin, to his credit, wishes no one to be treated in a degrading manner, even those who believe it is a sacred duty and reward to exterminate us; jihadists who see our civility as a disgusting weakness. Sadly, the senator is not a student of war. All armies, throughout history, including the US during WWII, Korea, Veit Nam, and today, have taken necessary coercive actions to obtain timely combat related intelligence from captured combatants. We routinely terrorized captured Wermacht soldiers to ascertain enemy unit dispositions. We took captured Viet Cong regulars up in helicopters and threatened to throw them out the door if they didn't talk. Gen. Patton's axiom remains true, one doesn't win wars by dying for one's country -- but making the other poor dumb bastard die for his. The viewpoint of Senator Durbin is, in the end, the type of cowardice that, like Chamberlain before him, gets whole innocent communities slaughtered. It is so sad, now, that the WWII generation of leaders is dying off, and we have lost their grasp of Total War. We lost more solders in one week on Iwo Jima -- in one day at Omaha Beach, than all of Iraq in two years. And what we have done in Gitmo is nothing like we did when fire-bombing Tokyo, or the Rhur valley. The US has incinerated thousands of noncombatant civilians in order to stop armament production. The slaughter of certain enemy terrorists is, sadly, the nature of the ugly affair. Senator Durbin and his supporters -- we did not choose this war, but at war we are. And until we understand it is Total War, our grandchildren have no future.
Posted by JR at June 18, 2005 04:55 AMvero, something tells me that you've been a Republican for several decades.
radcraft, the FACT is that the United States military re-opened Saddam's rape rooms under new management. It's a very uncomfortable fact, but that doesn't make it any less true.
Now for Buhner, the[DELETED] who keeps spewing lies about Sen. Dick Durbin's speech. He didn't deliver a catalogue of all the U.S. torture around the world. He lamented the torture that has happened. His speech was not just about Gitmo, as the following segment shows:
I believe the torture techniques that have been used at Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo and other places (emphasis added) fall into that same category. I am confident, sadly confident, as I stand here, that decades from now people will look back and say: What were they thinking? America, this great, kind leader of a nation, treated people who were detained and imprisoned, interrogated people in the crudest way? I am afraid this is going to be one of the bitter legacies of the invasion of Iraq.
The anecdote that he used was just one of the many incidences of torture by the United States military in its facilities around the world. First, we had [DELETED] here argue that Durbin had somehow fabricated the anecdote. I showed that to be a lie, so now they're charging that the anecdote didn't justify the characterization that Durbin made in one paragraph of his speech.
If Durbin's speech had been about that incident alone, this might be a reasonable objection. But Durbin's speech was about ALL of the torture. Face it Buhner, you approve of U.S. troops beating people to death, raping women and men and torturing them in all the other ways that have come to light. At best you're a [DELETED], but I'm starting to wonder whether you, like some others on the right wing, are something worse than that.
Posted by Willysnout at June 18, 2005 05:05 AMJR shows HIS ignorance, not Sen. Durbin's. In WW2, the U.S. Marine Corps had the practice and policy of treating Japanese POWs with humanity and respect. It paid great dividends in the form of useful information. And it showed that, at least at one time, the U.S. military had some standards, honor and principles that they were willing to uphold. Oh, by the way, the Marines did pretty well in the South Pacific.
http://mysite.verizon.net/vze6kt7j/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/aamitcsm.pdf
Posted by Willysnout at June 18, 2005 05:08 AMThe Democratic party is destroying itself. They literally don't even know it, and don't know how to behave any better in an America they cannot identify with and cannot understand. All of which is fine.
Gramsci's "long, slow march through the culture" has left them victims, instead of masters, through its own theories - devoid of any sense of history, attachment to tradition, commonly accepted standards of morality, faith, decency, or even common sense; unfortuantely for them, the vast majority of the nation did not follow them through the reeducation swamp as it was expected to. Instead of making mindless marxist shrubs of all of us, they only succeeding in making that of themselves - and thus rendered themselves defenseless and unsustainable.
Older people like myself lamented the truly ugly state of the Left in the early 1970's, which got so much airtime it seemed the dominant political force of the day, and we are amazed now at how quickly it has gotten to the same place with this war in Iraq - maybe even worse. The slanderous demonizing of the troops was the only missing piece from the old template, and I have been waiting for it to emerge. Now it has. And the democrats don't quite know how to maintain it and their fake, pandering pose of supporting the troops at the same time. At least in the 70's they didn't bother trying to be two faced about it. (I think Durbin might only have been the trial baloon - [DELETED] with no national profile and a safe seat and a reelection still three years away).
Willysnout, BTW, is repeating the very same things - almost word for word - that they were retailing back then! Have they no creative imagination at all? Do they think that no one will remember?
But it is desperation we smell. Remember, McGovern won only one state (not his own) in 1972, followed by a one term [DELETED], then the Reagan revolution - which is still playing out today.
Feel sorry for these [DELETED] (an apt alias since, in my generation, we knew "willy" as a euphemism for something private, and snout speaks for itself - have they even no self-respect?) Ignore his death-throes. Lack of attention will send him away. He is really not worth your time or energy, or mine.
Posted by JohnBoyle at June 18, 2005 06:30 AMin my generation, we knew "willy" as a euphemism for something private, and snout speaks for itself - have they even no self-respect?
Judging by your fondness for the sexual torture of POWs, I'd think you'd thrill to it. But I'm worry to disappoint you. Willy is the name of our late German Shepherd. As a puppy, his ears, his feet and his snout were outsized compared to his body, so one of the kids called him "Willysnout" and it stuck. Everyone loved him, and his memory lives on with my Internet sign-on.
Satisfied, ya [DELETED]?
Posted by Willysnout at June 18, 2005 06:49 AMWillysnout,
You wrote: "the U.S. Marine Corps had the practice and policy of treating Japanese POWs with humanity and respect. It paid great dividends in the form of useful information."
Where did you get that info. from? I have heard and seen footage of Marines and Sailors bringing home Japanese human skulls , ears, and teeth as trophies.
There is film footage of US sailors shooting at unarmed Japanese sailors in the water after their ships had sunk.
It's called WAR, Willysnout, and it ain't pretty. Marines are trained to kill the enemy and break things. Period.
You wrote: "And it showed that, at least at one time, the U.S. military had some standards, honor and principles that they were willing to uphold. Oh, by the way, the Marines did pretty well in the South Pacific."
Our Marines suffered some of the worst torure imaginable on Iwo Jima. The japanese skinned captured Marines alive. They poked out their eyes and burned off fingers.
Our Soldiers and Marines in Iraq have done NOTHING in comparison to the torture our soldiers went through at the hands of the Japanese after the Bataan Death March.
Are the prisoners at Gitmo living with dissentary? Are they only eating one meal a day (white rice at that) and one drink of filthy water a day?
Are they beaten regulary or hanged by their testicles in order to retrieve information? One American GI was hanged by his testicles for 2 days in a Japanese POW camp.
I am sure you know all about the medical research being done on prisoners at Gitmo, right? Sterilization, operations, freezing experiments, altitude experiments, veneral diseases, etc. just like the Nazis did???
And the slave labor as well, just like the Gulags??
Now I can see why Sen. Durbin compared that behavior at Gitmo to those "other" regimes.
No wonder you support him! Ignorance loves company........
Posted by Artbyruth at June 18, 2005 07:00 AMYou wrote: "the U.S. Marine Corps had the practice and policy of treating Japanese POWs with humanity and respect. It paid great dividends in the form of useful information."
Where did you get that info. from? I have heard and seen footage of Marines and Sailors bringing home Japanese human skulls , ears, and teeth as trophies.
Scroll back up to my original comment. Paste the link below it into a new browser window and hit Enter. You'll get a 1943 internal USMC document on Japanese POW interrogations. Contemporaneous accounts confirm the information there. The body parts as trophies aren't my cup of tea, but they were taken from the dead, not the living incident to interrogation.
Our Marines suffered some of the worst torure imaginable on Iwo Jima. The japanese skinned captured Marines alive. They poked out their eyes and burned off fingers.
My point exactly. The Japanese committed horrendous atrocities, yet when the USMC took them prisoner they were treated with humanity and respect. Why? Two reasons. One, it was effective to treat prisoners well. Secondly, the Marines of that era had honor and principles.
The facts that we haven't (yet?) heard of any medical experiments, etc., done on detainees is beside the point. The Red Cross, which has been inspecting prisoner facilities for a long time in many conflicts, called American treatment tantamount to torture. You people continue to lie about what happened because you can't face the truth.
Posted by Willysnout at June 18, 2005 07:24 AMKos and the rest quoted the same paragraph the GOP "lifted" and then said he was on the money.
The Democrats either have to denounce Durbin, and make him stand down...or they have to OWN what he said, and own it throughout the party.
The doubletalking, spinning and dissembling will not do, this time.
Posted by The Anchoress at June 18, 2005 07:26 AMSorry, but the only thing you and the rest of the right-wing, [DELETED] crowd have done is lie about everything in sight. Your [DELETED]Chief has us in a quagmire in Iraq that never had anything to do with any American interests. You lied about torture. You lied about "Mission Accomplished." Now you're lying about Durbin.
The paragraph in question is absolutely spot on. The fact that the Republican [DELETED] are so mad about it tells me that they're feeling guilty. Just look at public support for your dirty little war sink like a stone.
Posted by Willysnout at June 18, 2005 07:55 AMHey Willy:
Saddam Hussein practiced REAL TORTURE. What is happening at Gitmo - as described- is NOT torture - SEAL training is worse! - - Real torture uses bolt cutters to remove fingers one knuckle at a time.
So, ... let me ask you, how many knuckles before you would be BEGGING to be humiliated????
GoodKerry
My e-mail to the senator
Dear Sen Turbin,
You seem to be having some trouble articulating an apology for your stupid lies that you said on the senate floor the other day. I would like to offer some suggestions in that regard. First you might mention the FACT that the terrorists that are being held at Gitmo are the most humanely treated prisoner in the history of warfare even though they don't deserve it. Second you might want to admit that making any comparison of America to the Nazis, Gulags & the killing fields, not only offends all of the American patriots past and present who protect America from such muderers but to all of those innocent who truley did suffer under those regimes. Third you might back up your apology with a gesture that really means somthing other than lip service and do the honorable thing and resign.
Hey, I see Willie came back for more, and now he's quoting from the collected droppings of another fine patriot, Teddy K. Good thinking Willie! Everyone knows that Teddy is a righteous dude. Very persuasive. If Willie lurks around here long enough I'll bet we get the collective wisdom of Bernie Sanders and Angela Davis thrown in for free. Maybe some Chomsky if he's feeling especially generous.
Willie, go back to the anal sex talk, it's a less horrifying mental image than the fat, murdering, drunken gasbag from Mass.
Hey, I see your boy Durbin is starting to crawfish on his ravings from the other day. Do you get the feeling he's going to leave you with nothing but your rhetorical Willie in your hand? He may be a party hack, but there must be someone in his office smart enough to tell him that he's been showing his fat dimpled ass this week, and we the people don't like what we see. Ok Willie, you can go back to stealing the yellow ribbons off of cars now, or working on that cool giant paper mache Nazi puppet head you're going to wear in the next "Protest March of the Bad Smelling Nutjobs Against Everything". Have fun. But don't get in a car with Teddy. He's got this little problem with hosing people right before he drowns them.
"Sorry, but the only thing you and the rest of the right-wing, [DELETED] crowd have done is lie about everything in sight."
Oh look. Willy's projecting. Again.
Posted by Patrick Chester at June 18, 2005 03:39 PMArtbyruth,
You are correct about the awful truth in World War II. Many seem to forget that on Iwo, out of 22,000 Japanese defenders, less than 50 were even captured alive. All of the controversy about the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki is almost entirely much after the fact. There was little serious consideration of not doing it at the time. The focus was on saving American lives, and winning the war by any means as soon as possible, and there was little compassion for the Japanese - because of what they had habitually done since China in the early 30's. I'm surprised Durbin did not compare our troops to the Japanese also - but, you see, the Japanese are not easily associated in public opinion with toxic buzz words, - and they are still around. Gulags, Nazis and Pol Pot are all dead historical entities - not current societies. For the likes of Durbin, discretion is the better part of cowardice.
I had dinner last Friday with a man who, at 18, fought on Okinawa. The Marines did what they had to do, and much more in the Pacific. It doesn't puzzle me why we universally regard WWII as one of our greatest moments, with universal support, after all that went on during it, and meanwhile Vietnam and now Iraq, which altogether don't equate to even a few months of the worst of WWII in any category of accounting, get this hideouly distorted and exagerated bad rap on any pretext at all. I've concluded it is because one of the major effects of our involvement in World War II was that it also saved Stalin's Soviet Union - how could the Left attack such an enterprise!
I also know several Vietnam POWs personally, as well as a survivor of the Bataan death march. These comparisons to other wars that are being made here are ludicrous - never mind comparisons to others of the worst abusers in human history.
These poeple have no clue at all. None. They have digested and regurgitated second-hand self-hatred from notorious marxist propagandists who pander to and salve their psychological disabilities.
The fact is, real propagandists have some subtlety. These pathetic drooling ranters are simply desperate.
Posted by JohnBoyle at June 18, 2005 06:09 PMThere is an online petition created by an Illinoisan requesting that Durbin resign. If you reside in Illinois and are interested in signing it the link is here:
http://www.petitiononline.com/22081328/petition.html
Posted by EyeDoc at June 18, 2005 07:07 PMDemocrats must be made to pay for blundering once again and being unpatriotic:
1. You can contribute as little as $10.00 on websites to Republicans running for Senate in 2006. [Hugh Hewitt had a link a couple of days ago]. I'd suggest picking those who really need money to defeat an incumbent Democrat. This worked to get rid of Daschel and it can work again. You can email your receipt to any Senator you wish as well and explain why you're donating.
2. Durbin won in 2002 with 63% of the vote in Illinois. Likely he will be elected again in 2008. You can just not spend any money in Illinois and you can write various cities' business organizations and the Illinois tourist organization and tell them you're spending your bucks elsewhere and why. If your business orders things from Illinois, you could look for a supplier in another state.
3. The BRAC 2005 will look at military facilities in Illinois targeted to be closed. You can google for BRAC members and write to them to suggest that those bases, the troops, that money and the civilian jobs be moved to states where our military isn't spit on.
I suspect much of rural Illinois supports our military but cities like Chicago and otherlarge urban areas don't. Mainstream press in Illinois, has mostly ignored this story and is thumbing it's nose at our military.
Every penny counts. Just one penny... the last one... will weigh enough to tip the scales.
Posted by Xixi at June 18, 2005 07:46 PMHey, I see Willie came back for more, and now he's quoting from the collected droppings of another fine patriot, Teddy K.
Wow, you just can't stop lying can you? I've never quoted from Ted Kennedy. By the way, I used to live in Massachusetts. I never voted for Teddy. After all, the girl died, and yes I did hold it against him.
He may be a party hack, but there must be someone in his office smart enough to tell him that he's been showing his fat dimpled ass this week
Hey Greyhawk I'd say you missed one. Or don't you censor your brethren under the skin?
You are correct about the awful truth in World War II. Many seem to forget that on Iwo, out of 22,000 Japanese defenders, less than 50 were even captured alive
The Japanese were fierce fighters and considered it dishonorable to live. This has no bearing on any discussion of how the USMC treated those who survived and were taken prisoner.
All of the controversy about the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki is almost entirely much after the fact. There was little serious consideration of not doing it at the time.
I think nuking Japan was the right decision.
These comparisons to other wars that are being made here are ludicrous - never mind comparisons to others of the worst abusers in human history.
I think the comparison between the Islamic radical terrorists and the Japanese is a very good one. You have fanatical militants committing horrific atrocities, and engaging in suicidal attacks. In WW2, the United States Marine Corps did not stoop to their level. In the Iraq War, the U.S. military decided to abandon a century's worth of honor and principles.
You people are perfectly o.k. with that. In fact, many of you actually cheer it. You are moral relativists without any principles whatsoever. Not only that, but you're willing to let the other side set the terms of engagement. It's not only sad, but it's really not very bright.
Posted by Willysnout at June 18, 2005 07:53 PMXixi
Great post with some seriously useful information well worth acting on.
I sent an email to Senator Corzine, who is running as a Democrat now for Governor of New Jersey, demanding an unequivocal statement from him, or he can expect serious fund raising efforts from me - for his opponent.
This is my email to the other Democratic Senator from my home state:
Dear Senator Lautenberg,
I have been anxiously awaiting some statement from you concerning Senator Durbin's comments on the floor of the United States Senate, in which he characterized the U.S. military as like the most horrendous barbarians of the 20th century, whom he specified by name in his comparison.
I may have missed your reaction in the media, so I would appreciate some clarification from you or your staff.
I am a veteran of the Vietnam War. I made a vow that I would do anything I ever could politically to protect future generations of our military from the propagandistic slanders which I and my comrades-in-arms were made to endure in the 60's and 70's.
For our young men and women to be making the kinds of extreme sacrifices they are making on our behalf, while we sit comfortably at home enjoying all that their sacrifices guarantee for us, only to be repaid by one of the highest ranking officials of the Democratic party and our Senate with this sort of atrocious vilification, is totally inexcusable.
I know it is asking too much of you to refer Senator Durbin to the Ethics and Rules Committee for investigation for censure and/or expulsion - which he certainly has coming to him. But as one of your constituents, I can ask you to at the very least condemn this sort of devastating propaganda aid and comfort to our nation’s enemies, and this determined demoralization of our defense forces in war time.
I am in contact via the Internet with many of our serving soldiers in Iraq. I can tell you that the Democratic party is destroying itself in large segments of that population, as well as the enormous veteran population. For every serving member and veteran, there are dozens of family members and friends and local community supporters. We are talking more than 25 million voters plus those associated with them.
Wake up, and speak up - for your own party's sake, if for nothing else.
Depending on the response you make publicly, my political activities in New Jersey will be guided. I have been a fund raiser for Democrats before I retired to the Jersey Shore going back to Bill Green's campaign against John Heinz in 1976.
I can assure you I will continue such activism, but it will not be for any candidate or party on the wrong side of our national interests in war time.
And please do not patronize me with a response which claims I misunderstood Senator Durbin - a response he himself is now trying to peddle; an insult to my intelligence as well as salt in the wounds. I watched his entire statement on C-Span and read the complete transcript carefully. He does not belong in public office in this country.
Sincerely,
John Boyle
John, I'm sorry you are in favor of torture and rape as long as they are committed by American forces. I guess you'll just have to become a Republican. It looks like they're turning into the pro-torture party. I do have to caution you that only 37% of the public approves of this dirty little war, and it looks to me as if the Amnesty International report just might have been the straw that broke the camel's back.
Posted by Willysnout at June 18, 2005 08:41 PMI failed to mention before that my persoanl knowledge of the victims of the kinds of regimes Durbin references, in addition to a survivor of the Japanese Bataan Death March and many Vietnam POWs, was Father Walter J. Ciszek, S.J. - a Catholic Jesuit priest, who wound up in Poland as World war II started, and was sent through Stalin's gulag system - where he remained for over 23 years before his release in 1963 through the efforts of Robert Kennedy. His book, "He Leadeth Me" is worth reading if anyone wants to consider how Durbin's comparison is pathetically ignorant of what he is describing, if nothing else.
Ciszek died in 1984 and is buried in a small seminary cemetery in Wernersville, PA, near my brother, who belonged to the same organization and who died on 2003. Ciszek is now undergoing the long Church investigation toward sainthood, which will include some personnal correspondence of his which I was able to provide to his "Promoter of the Cause."
And, finally, I also have some personal knowledge of Sean Flynn, a photo journailist who was murdered by the communists in Cambodia in 1970. But that is off topic, somewhat; although it may be red meat for any trolls who want to get into "targeting journalists."
Still, those with real-life knowledge of what Durbin is comparing our military to, I think have more vivid, and valid, reason to be outraged at this nonesense than anyone else, including arm-chair pundits working on acquiring carpel-tunnel syndrome via computer mouse - children of the reeducation generation.
Posted by John Boyle at June 18, 2005 08:44 PMJohn, why are you in favor of torture? Read the Taguba report. It's documented there. Do you get off on this sort of stuff?
Posted by Willysnout at June 18, 2005 08:50 PMDo you think if everyone ignores willysnout he will eventually go away? doubt it. Anyway the big picture I see is that BinLaden thinks that America does not have the stomach for what it is going to take for us to win this war. With Sen Turban and comments from other Lib's I'm beginning to think he may be right. This is just too depressing to think we are becoming a nation of [DELETED]. Say it aint so.
Posted by joefrommass at June 18, 2005 08:56 PM"Do you think if everyone ignores willysnout he will eventually go away?"
- joefrommass
That's what all of the psychiatric training manuals suggest.
Posted by John Boyle at June 18, 2005 09:32 PMJoe, let's not talk about the moral side for a minute. God knows the Republican Party doesn't want to talk about right and wrong except when they're telling someone ELSE how to run their lives. Let's look at the practical side. Torture doesn't work. The U.S. learned that in WW2. Humane treatment of Japanese POWs produced usable information.
http://mysite.verizon.net/vze6kt7j/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/aamitcsm.pdf
Torture is what a frustrated loser does when he decides to turn his brain off. The mystery to me is why the U.S. government's top policymakers began the war in frustrated loser mode. It's really pretty stunning when you think about it.
Posted by Willysnout at June 18, 2005 09:37 PMp.s.: I mean, talk about your self-fulfilling prophecies. Instituting a torture policy was a massive vote of no-confidence in this country's military by its own leaders. We didn't have a policy of torturing people in WW2, and the U.S. won that one, but this time our leaders decided they had to throw away a century's worth of principles and practices to adopt a loser's tactic. The only question one can really ask is WHY?
Posted by Willysnout at June 18, 2005 09:40 PMAll of this reminds me of a story once told by someone I got to know very well. He decided to commit suicide one day, locked himself in his bedroom in his empty house, sat on the bed with a rifle across his lap, then paused to reflect. He then got down on the floor before taking aim, so that he would not hurt himself by falling off the bed!
Aside from a marked lack of connection to reality, this story demonstartes the mind-set of those pathologically insensitive to the true character of different categories of extreme action. It also reminds me of the first time I was shot at. I stood transfixed on a road as sniper rounds walked in toward me on the rice paddy water. One, two, three. I was so amazed by the reality that someone was actually trying to kill ME, personally, that I literally could not, and did not, believe my own eyes. A buddy jumped up from the roadside ditch and pulled me down.
What nit-wits in paradise want our troopps to know is that "You can kill 'em, but plesae don't hurt them or upset them," or Dick Durbin will tell the world you are the great mass murderer of all history. There is a total disconnect from realities which are outside the realm of normal human experience (that's what war fighting is) and Judge Judy on afternoon TV.
Sad thing is, propaganda often is aimed at comforting self-righteous delusions; another reason why it works.
Our enemies do know this. It is, in fact, their single real weapon for now, unless they get nukes. They know the war will not be decided in Iraq or anywhere but here in the good ole USA. The Durbins of this world have already decided to surrender. Maybe he hopes the Islamofascists will cut him a break when it's over, or even let him keep his job, for having switched sides early - like the Vichy in France in 1940, whose war ships attacked American troops landing in North Africa.
Posted by John Boyle at June 18, 2005 10:07 PMThat williesnout sure is difficult to ignore. Anyway the problem I have with Sen Turbans comments, aside from the obvious Anti-American sentiment that prevails througout the Democratic party, is that the interrogation techniques he describes does not even meet the definition of torture it is simply making someone uncomfortable. No I wouldn't want it to go through it myself but no physical harm is actually being done. Simply asking somone politely for information that would help us, his sworn enemy, doesnt always produce the desired results. This is serious business and somtimes we need to get tough to protect America from those who would do us harm. I've said it before that these terrorist are treated better than any POW in the history of warfare and that is a fact.
Posted by joefrommass at June 18, 2005 10:26 PMJohn you still haven't answered me. Why are you in favor of torture? Do you think it works? Do you get off on it? Or does it just make you feel like you're "doing something" do solve the problem?
Posted by Willysnout at June 18, 2005 10:27 PMWillie,
Well, yes you did quote Teddy. Whether you did it consciously or not is a matter between you and your shrink. He famously proclaimed that Saddam's rape rooms were re-opened under new management during the Abu Ghraib faux hysteria ginned up by the democrats and their enablers at cbs & nbc last May. Try Googling "kennedy open under new management". Sounds a lot, in fact exactly like the bilge you ejected above, "radcraft, the FACT is that United States military re-opened Saddam's rape rooms under new management". In the minds of the rest of you lefty droids, reading a quote from vodka-breath in the ny times MAKES it a fact, as long as it might hurt the president politically before an election. You really should bring this up with your shrink. Who knows what other Kennedy fantasies are distorting your reality? God only knows what other hive-mind brain waves are bouncing around inside your skull. Try this one, "it's ok that kleagle byrd, the second biggest hypocrite in the senate behind teddy, is soaking the treasury for billions in pork, stonewalls black judges, first attacks the fillibuster, then claims that we need it to save the republic, and generally acts like he's starring in a commercial for dementia treatment, because he's a democrat, and bush must be beaten at any cost. even if it means dead american children in the streets when the headchoppers resurface" Admit it Willie, deep down that's how you feel. Once you admit your problem you can get on the road to being an American instead of a kneejerk socialist droid. If there is a merciful God, you might just make it.
Well, I guess that Teddy really can turn a phrase. As the the rest, radcraft, you really ought to try Rant #3. Your Rant #2, well, it just doesn't sing. But I can say this much: When you people are reduced to material like yours I know that I'm winning the game here. You're not even trying to rationalize away the truth, you're bypassing it entirely on your way to the rubber room. Have a nice time in Romper Room, but stay away from the guy with the plunger.
Unless you enjoy it, in which case I say: " ... not that there's anything wrong with that." As long as you both agree.
Posted by Willysnout at June 18, 2005 11:31 PMThat williesnout sure is difficult to ignore.
Funny how the right-wing just can't allow the truth to sit out there coming with more lies to answer it.
Anyway the problem I have with Sen Turbans comments, aside from the obvious Anti-American sentiment that prevails througout the Democratic party, is that the interrogation techniques he describes does not even meet the definition of torture it is simply making someone uncomfortable.
Hmm, that's not what the Taguba report said, nor is it was the International Red Cross said. Taguba called the abuses "horrific," and the Red Cross said they were "tantamount to torture." Taguba is a U.S. Army general, and the Red Cross has been inspecting POW camps for, oh, about 100 years if I'm not mistaken.
From Webster's Dictionary
tan·ta·mount
equivalent in value, significance, or effect
No I wouldn't want it to go through it myself but no physical harm is actually being done.
Sorry, but you're lying again. Here are the addresses of the Taguba report and the Red Cross report. They detail beating deaths, rape, torture and other severe treatment of POWs at the hands of American soldiers. The Red Cross said the ill-treatment appeared to be the result of standard operating procedure.
http://www.agonist.org/annex/taguba.htm
http://cryptome.org/icrc-report.htm
Simply asking somone politely for information that would help us, his sworn enemy, doesnt always produce the desired results.
Funny you should mention that. See, this is exactly what the U.S. Marine Corps did with captured Japanese during WW2. And guess what? It worked. Not only that, but the United States won that war. Check the link to a USMC internal report from 1943. I've done followup research and reports at the time confirm that humane treatment was policy and widely followed practice.
http://mysite.verizon.net/vze6kt7j/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/aamitcsm.pdf
I've said it before that these terrorist are treated better than any POW in the history of warfare and that is a fact.
You're lying about that, too. The U.S. treated both Japanes and European prisoners of war quite well during WW2. In either 1944 or 1945, in fact, the murder of a single Italian POW at a stockade in Seattle caused such a national outcry that the president of the United States had to get involved. See, at that time Americans did not approve of the mistreatment of POWs. The Republican Party wasn't the torture lobby back then like it is today.
-- Not that any of the above will matter to you. Right wing individuals have no morals and no principles that they won't sell out in an instant, and you run away from the truth like cockroaches from the light. What you should really ponder, though, is who uses torture. Losers use torture! The question of the hours ought to be this: Why did this country's leadership have so little faith in their military and their strategy that they would use a loser's tactic from the get-go?
Posted by Willysnout at June 18, 2005 11:52 PMWell Willie,
The one issue of "truth" I've debated with you is your definitive statement (which you later admitted was a lie), that you've never quoted Teddy. That makes you a liar Willie, desperate to score whatever little debating points you can, ignoring the fact that you've been getting your clock cleaned here for about the last 24 hours by 9 different people.
As to "trying to rationalize away the truth", none of the people doing the clock cleaning on you needs to rationalize. That sounds like projection again, although I'll admit that my background is in manufacturing, not head science. What we see as the truth is that Durbin, Kennedy, Leahy, Schumer, Byrd, Rather, Dowd, Krugmann, and you Willie, are so deeply contemptuous of our country, and so hell-bent on winning the political battle of the present, that you would leave our children vulnerable to slaughter, as long as you get to be in charge. And it's coming Willie. These savages will not be happy until they have your blood and mine. So, the truth we see is that you and your buds are taking cheap backshots for political advantage at the very people who are protecting your back. That's childish, and it's a damn shame.
Okay, that's it. Willysnout, your persistence in calling the quote from Sen. Durbin *torture* is WRONG. And yes, I've read the quote and heard it, too (tape). And yes, I've listened to the whole quote. And I've read EVERYthing you've posted here today, as well as on Greyhawk's previous post on the emergence of the 'torture narrative'. You REALLY want to call Republicans *The Party of Torture*, don't you. And you will persist until, you hope, it sticks.
But it's indeed hard to have or read a substantive discussion involving someone who perceives a different *reality*.
You WANT the techniques most recently approved to be referred to as torture, and you INSIST on calling the actions of rogue individuals and interrogators 'just following orders'. You even will purposely misread another poster's comment as 'just get[ting] off on [torture]', just so you can proceed with your own torture narrative.
NO ONE here has said they encourage more abuses like those at Abu Graib (and btw, most people, when they refer to Abu Graib, are referring to the photos that appeared courtesy of Seymour Hersh, NOT the Taguba report. Do you have any evidence that Sen. Durbin has read the Taguba report, and that he was referring to same?). NO ONE here has said they don't want any officer, soldier, Marine, or other individual not to meet the high standards observed by the military of the world's superpower.
And when those soldiers et al ARE called to account, *by our military*, then, because you are so determined to make this the fault of the Bush administration, you brush it off as a *slap on the hand*. I don't think 10 years at Ft. Leavenworth is a *slap*.
And then you try to paint ALL of us who support our military, and the administration leading them, as sexual deviants who *get off on it*.
How dare you?! What person posting above said they don't want any punishment for the personnel committing proven crimes? What person above thinks that the crimes you insist on listing over and over again are SOP? (BTW, here I'm talking about the proven crimes, NOT Sen. Durbin's quote.)
You've hijacked the discussion, and because you have done so, it allows you to completely misinterpret any poster condemning Sen. Durbin for his remarks. It is HIS REMARKS and the actions which he quoted that are under discussion. NOT the Taguba report. And CERTAINLY not the International Red Cross and any 'report' they may have. Durbin's speech on the Senate floor was designed to do exactly what you've hijacked this discussion for: To conflate Abu Graib and Gitmo, to DEFEAT the U.S. Military and the United States in the current war, and to do it for partisan gain.
You hit it dead center Pamela.
That's what I meant by "cheap backshots for political advantage". That's total dissrespect for people who's boots our Willie and Dick-boy are not fit to polish. It's taking advantage of people who are not present to defend their honor.
Durbin knows better, he does it because that's what the nutjobs in his party want, but the willfull blindness of people like Willie is truly sad.
I think what we have here is a pre-adolescent with a computer, some acting ability and a sick sense of humor. You all really need to ignore him.
Posted by John Boyle at June 19, 2005 02:59 AMYo WillySnout,
You must not know too much about the Revolutionary War, the Pirates, the French and Indian War, the war of 1812, the war to get Texas and the West (Manifest Destiny), WWI and WWII, or any other war. If you fight rules of engagement when your oppenent is fighting dirty, it takes a long time, a lot of bodies, a lot of unnecessary death, a lot of patience, all of which you have none. So kindly SHUT UP.
From an Internet site notorious for extreme views:
“Wikipedia defines an Internet Troll as: ‘. . . a person who sends messages on the Internet hoping to entice other users into angry or fruitless responses . . .’
"Please, when posting comments, be respectful of others and ignore those trying to interrupt or discourage meaningful discourse.”
You WANT the techniques most recently approved to be referred to as torture, and you INSIST on calling the actions of rogue individuals and interrogators 'just following orders'. You even will purposely misread another poster's comment as 'just get[ting] off on [torture]', just so you can proceed with your own torture narrative.
I hate to burden your soul -- what there is of it -- with the truth because I know how much you hate the truth. But the fact is that the techniques used by the U.S. military at Abu Ghraib, Gitmo and elsewhere are the same ones that were used by Stalin's NKVD and Hitler's Gestapo. Humiliation, sleep deprivation, sound and light, forced standing, jamming foreign objects into orifices, the whole nine yards. It's all been done before.
You just don't want to know about it. Why? Because you have no principles and no morals that you won't abandon for the whims of your political masters. The truth is your enemy, and you have absolutely no regard for the "freedom" you claim to uphold. It is an empty shell, just like your ethics and your intellect have become empty shells.
You've hijacked the discussion, and because you have done so, it allows you to completely misinterpret any poster condemning Sen. Durbin for his remarks. It is HIS REMARKS and the actions which he quoted that are under discussion. NOT the Taguba report. And CERTAINLY not the International Red Cross and any 'report' they may have.
Your definition of a "hijacking" is when someone tells you the truth. In defending Durbin's remarks, it is entirely relevant to show why his remarks were accurate by pointing to the Taguba report's confirmation of "horrendous abuses" and the Red Cross's opinion that the U.S. has used techniques on prisoners that are "tantamount to torture" and which appear to be part of a standard operating procedure.
Some of the right-wing posters here maintained that Sen. Durbin fabricated the FBI e-mail to which he referred in his speech. That was another lie, as shown by a comparison between Durbin's speech and the actual e-mail. Others have lied that the U.S. torture techniques are not as bad as those used by Stalin and Hitler, when in fact they are the very same techniques.
http://www.w3ar.com/a.php?k=489
Again, you don't want to hear it. That's because you wouldn't know the truth if it slapped you in the face. You've brainwashed yourself. Humanity has been down that road before, and it's not a pretty one.
Posted by Willysnout at June 20, 2005 12:16 AMVietnam POW Cmdr. Paul Galanti has a letter on topic:
http://www.indepundit.com/archive2/2005/06/pow_blasts_durb.html
As has Newt Gingrich:
http://powerlineblog.com/archives/010781.php
You'll have to cut and paste the links. Anyone know how to create links with this application?
Of course, we can't hope that such lightweights will stack up to the kind of depth we enjoy here from credible citizens with other viewpoints. Speaker Gingrich has never learned how to actually and successfully win people over or get anytyhing done, so why pay attention to him?
Posted by John Boyle at June 20, 2005 01:29 AMHmmm . . .
In the end, all is revealed.
"Torture is what a frustrated loser does when he decides to turn his brain off."
Trolls try to torture strangers from behind the cowardly cover of electronic distance.
Hurt people hurt people.
The abused become abusers.
Sad.
Posted by John Boyle at June 20, 2005 01:47 AMTrolls try to torture strangers from behind the cowardly cover of electronic distance.
Hurt people hurt people.
The abused become abusers.
The only torture you and any others from the far right wing might feel is that produced by their guilty consciences. I've been assured, however, that there are no consciences here, so I seriously doubt that my words are the catalyst for anyone's pain. But if I have awakened anyone's dormant conscience I can only rejoice at the possibility that I might have opened someone's eyes to the truth.
After all, until now such a person has been operating without morals and without principles save those that can be abandoned at a moment's notice. Such a person flees from the truth like a cockroach flees from the light. Such a person is today's Republican.
Posted by Willysnout at June 20, 2005 06:47 AMTrolls try to torture strangers from behind the cowardly cover of electronic distance.
Hurt people hurt people.
The abused become abusers.
The only torture you and any others from the far right wing might feel is that produced by their guilty consciences. I've been assured, however, that there are no consciences here, so I seriously doubt that my words are the catalyst for anyone's pain. But if I have awakened anyone's dormant conscience I can only rejoice at the possibility that I might have opened someone's eyes to the truth.
After all, until now such a person has been operating without morals and without principles save those that can be abandoned at a moment's notice. Such a person flees from the truth like a cockroach flees from the light. Such a person is today's Republican.
Posted by Willysnout at June 20, 2005 06:48 AMWhat a turd.
Such a turd is today's Willie.
At least he's staying busy here annoying the normal people getting in the last word, instead of going outside and scaring the children.
Censor? Are you going to check in on your twisted little brethren or is civility one of those things you you'd just as soon not require of the right wing?
Posted by Willysnout at June 20, 2005 05:08 PM". . . one who believes he sees others through his own sepcial window, when it is himself alone in a mirror that he sees."
From a dissertation on projection as a symptom of paranoid personlity desorder as defined in the DSM-IV of the American Psychiatric Association.
Posted by John Boyle at June 20, 2005 06:33 PMGreyhawk here: For more on the Taguba report see here. Key quote from Taguba: "We did not find any evidence of a policy or a direct order given to these soldiers to conduct what they did. I believe that they did it on their own volition and I believe that they collaborated with several MI (military intelligence) interrogators at the lower level," Tugaba said.
Posted by Greyhawk at June 20, 2005 07:27 PMGreyhawk here: For more on the Taguba report see here. Key quote from Taguba: "We did not find any evidence of a policy or a direct order given to these soldiers to conduct what they did. I believe that they did it on their own volition and I believe that they collaborated with several MI (military intelligence) interrogators at the lower level," Tugaba said.
I do believe Greyhawk is going over the edge in futile and clumsy attempt to mispresent my effective postings on the subject of torture. I never cited Taguba as one who concluded that the U.S. has had a torture policy. That came from the Red Cross and Seymour Hersh.
[This actually is Greyhawk, interrupting another Willysnout comment. For more on Seymour Hersh see here and here, and follow the links at those posts. Now back to Willy]
The Taguba report's value is that it was the first time the U.S. government confirmed the reality of torture by its troops, although instead of the word torture the report used the label "horrific abuses."
Taguba whitewashed the senior policy level. I believe -- but cannot prove -- that he did so because the lying fake president, George W. Bush, came out well before the report was finished and declared the Abu Ghraib torture to be a series of isolated incidents perpetrated by a few bad apples. Thus, the report's conclusions were pre-ordained. No general officer is going to publicly contradict his commander-in-chief during wartime, and damn few of them will do it during peacetime.
Posted by Willysnout at June 20, 2005 10:02 PM[This actually is Greyhawk, interrupting another Willysnout comment. For more on Seymour Hersh see here and here, and follow the links at those posts. Now back to Willy]
I followed the links to some long-winded thuwhines (a sort of low-pitched right wing whine) about Hersh being a liar and perve.rted, along with an allegation that the Abu Ghraib pics came from one of the defendants in the case. Oh, and I think I saw something in there about how Hersh has implied a lot of new stuff coming but hasn't produced it.
It could be that Hersh was allowed to view the additional information but not keep copies. As for the source of the photos that were released, who cares? I don't care if Hersh got the stuff at a swap meet in Georgia. As long as the material is real, the source is irrelevant. Greyhawk's dislike of Hersh plus $1.50 will buy
