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I've sent E-mails to all the veterans I know in Idaho; if the family decides they want us there, we will be...
Posted by Bubblehead at June 14, 2005 07:31 PM
and there's nothing anyone can do about it
Well, nothing legal I suppose. But I suspect someday he will pick the wrong funeral and something most certainly will be done about it.
Posted by DaveG at June 14, 2005 07:42 PM
Public nuisance? Disturbing the peace?
Vagrancy?
Posted by Robert Crawford at June 14, 2005 08:01 PM
Maybe trying to break somebody's knuckles with his face?
Posted by pi at June 14, 2005 08:35 PM
That's a bunch of nonsense that "nothing can be done about it". Fred Phelps is obviously beyond insane. Have him dragged off to a psychiatric facility as a danger to himself and to others as soon as he becomes the least bit disruptive.
Posted by Brian Schafer at June 14, 2005 08:38 PM
Maybe he should stay home and keep tabs on his church.
Posted by Really Annoyed at June 14, 2005 08:39 PM
Unless the entire ceremony and internment takes place on public property, he certainly can get pulled for tresspassing.
If I were chief Sobba, I'd have an officer with him, waiting for the moment his foot touched private property, the second he dropped a paper (littering) or the instant his speech turns to slander or inciting violence.
Posted by SCSIwuzzy at June 14, 2005 09:01 PM
Look, a cop can do something about it if he or she wants. The moment this moron "disturbs the peace" of the funeral, which I would logically assume is a much lower standard than disturbing the peace of other less-somber activities, the cops can arrest him.
And if they don't then shame on him.
Posted by Wandering Mind at June 14, 2005 09:04 PM
Phelps is a cretin and a walking vulgarity. He's just in this for the notoriety. He's a walking, talking version of the creepy trolls who post to Internet discussion boards. The key to getting rid of him is to ignore the stinking weasel.
In Britain they can ban hooligans from attending soccer matches for past behavior. Why can't someone in our country slap a restraining order on this idiot that keeps him at least a mile away from this poor family's time of grief?
Maybe he'll get a flat on the way there or have car trouble. I'm not advocating anyone do anything, but it's something to pray for isn't it?
Posted by Me, Myself, and I at June 14, 2005 09:44 PM
Actually I had a second thought...Since Phelps has a track record, and since he's declared his intentions, couldn't they arrest him for conspiracy to disrupt the peace? At least long enough for the funeral to take place.
The only other alternative is to declare the funeral private and monitor the participants for this troublemaker.
Posted by Me, Myself, and I at June 14, 2005 09:49 PM
He can be refused admittance to this private ceremony, and charged with any number of offenses if he refuses to listen. This is precisely like claiming that he can attend the wedding, or any other private event, of any stranger he wishes. It's bogus.
It occurs to me that it is also precisely the same as claiming that I, or anyone else, has a right to just show up in his living room at some odd hour of the morning, demanding he get down on his knees and offer up gay sex on command.
Maybe someone will take up that last challenge.
Posted by carlisle at June 14, 2005 10:24 PM
We here in Kansas appreciate your feelings. Phelps' people picketed the funderal of a judge not a hundred yards from me last week in front of a Baptist church (across the street from the Episcopal church where the funeral was held). He's been doing this stuff for years and we have learned to ignore him. Counterprotesting just gives him free publicity. His people thrive on it.
My understanding is that his cult-like church is mostly made up of his married and intermarried family members.
Sadly the MSM likes to use his efforts to show that christians are homophobic. Phelps' church is so far out of the mainstream of any kind of real christainity they really are more a personality cult than a real church from what we know of them here.
Just a word from someone who has had to face this several times before.
Posted by Ace at June 14, 2005 10:45 PM
We here in Kansas appreciate your feelings. Phelps' people picketed the funderal of a judge not a hundred yards from me last week in front of a Baptist church (across the street from the Episcopal church where the funeral was held). He's been doing this stuff for years and we have learned to ignore him. Counterprotesting just gives him free publicity. His people thrive on it.
My understanding is that his cult-like church is mostly made up of his married and intermarried family members.
Sadly the MSM likes to use his efforts to show that christians are homophobic. Phelps' church is so far out of the mainstream of any kind of real christainity they really are more a personality cult than a real church from what we know of them here.
Just a word from someone who has had to face this several times before.
Posted by Ace at June 14, 2005 10:46 PM
Parts of Idaho are just barely in the United States. Some years back, you may remember, a wanted Soviet spy went to ground at a ranch in Idaho where any fugitive can buy informal asylum. One night he was visiting a bar in the local town when there was a network news story about him, a story which included his photograph. The customers burst into applause and cheers. This kind of evil still goes unpunished.
Posted by Bleepless at June 14, 2005 10:55 PM
If your blood isn't boiling enough already by the walking excrement that is Fred Phelps, take a look at the photo accompanying the news article that The Stupid Shall Be Punished linked to (http://www.klewtv.com/x5781.xml?ParentPageID=x5649&ContentID=x66219&Layout=KLEW.xsl&AdgroupIx5781). Now, take a look at the poster at the far right. Its a bit cropped, but it clearly says "Thank God For September 11".
Scum. Unforgiveable scum.
Posted by Sean P at June 14, 2005 11:37 PM
You all know how I feel about torture, humiliation and cultural degradation, but if any of these things should happen to befall Mr. Phelps I wouldn't advocate taking an extreme amount of time searching for the perpetrators.
Posted by Willysnout at June 14, 2005 11:43 PM
Shameful. That's the only word I can think of that applies here. You all believe in the first amendment, until it's going to apply to someone whose views you don't like.
Yeah, let's arrest him on trumped-up charges, but we can still bitch when the Secret Service does that to people who try to attend the president's appearances. Let's kick the hell out of him, so we can be like the people who murdered Mathew Shepard, and thereby show our moral superiority. Let's torture him, because torture is wrong, unless we're behind it, and then it's a necessity.
Other than Ace and a couple others who are near sensible, you lot are sickening.
You may think your motives for censorship are benign, but you're still proposing to pave the road to totalinarianism. The only legitimate response to evil speech is better speech.
Posted by johnny at June 15, 2005 01:12 AM
If you might indulge me a Righteous Rant. I apologize in advance for the length of the comment.
My blood pressure and mind and emotions have been much happier places since I simply FORGOT the name of, and about Fred Phelps for a while. Now that button has been pushed. As a Christian, in making my comments, I feel a bit like the poor schlep who comes up behind the parade to clean up all the poop dropped on the "parade route"...the mess I feel a sense of duty (not dooty! heh!) to clean up however is the indiscriminate defacation of one major CLOWN who *looks* as much like Jesus as Michael Moore looks like Condi Rice!!
[the following is copied over from another blog where I ranted (aka: was hoping to clean up clown poop!(~;)]:
You wannna see my claws and fangs extended quickly?
Then just name the name of the ne plus ultra in UNChrist-like, pharisitical, bible thumpin' bigotry: Fred Phelps.
I can't begin to explain the sense of pure evil (oxymoron?) that exudes from his hellishly hateful website.
That church chump WILL be held accountable for the "sheep" he's mislead and abused, quite frankly. He has YET to connect with the clue bat as to what the answer is to: "WWJD?"
It's likely he's been wearing & reading his WWJD bracelet upside down all these years....not to mention, from his lofty judgment seat, reading his bible upside down!!
Talk about thee APEX example of which to point to in show and tell as to" "That's NOT Jesus!"
What a tool of the anti-Christian leftists, too....little does the white washed tombstone full of dead mens bones KNOW that he's a pawn of hell itself!!!.
And you heard THAT rant from a *bible thumpin' Jesus Freak*
OK..I'll take a few deep breaths now!
Mr. Phelps, try these on for size...(RIGHT SIDE UP):
Psalm 73:6
Therefore pride compasseth them about as a chain; violence covereth them as a garment.
Proverbs 11:2
When pride cometh, then cometh shame: but with the lowly is wisdom.
Proverbs 16:18
Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.
Proverbs 29:23
A man's pride shall bring him low: but honour shall uphold the humble in spirit.
Nuff said???
*****************
Greyhawk,
You & Mrs. G & fam. have...and have had for some time...my daily prayers [which HARDLY originate from anywhere near the same planet as the *cough* "prayers" of Fred Phelps~! (~;]
GOD [continue to] BLESS OUR TROOPS! (and open the BLIND *eyes* of Fred Phelps)
Posted by Rocky Mtn. Lioness at June 15, 2005 02:46 AM
johnny:
All government takes place on a slippery slope. Your arguments, such as they are, leave me entirely unmoved. If the thinnest of legal pretexts can be found to put this guy away before he disrupts the funeral, I have no problem with that.
Posted by JPS at June 15, 2005 02:48 AM
Thank you for your response, JPS.
Suppose he doesn't disrupt the funeral at all, should he be arrested anyway? That seemed to be what most were hoping for, and what I objected to. If he stands across the street with his "God hates fags" and "Carrie French died because we tolerate fags" signs, should he be arrested?
If he forces his way onto private property where he is nto wanted, I think he should be arrested. If he behaves legally but as horribly as is his wont, then there's no justification to arresting him.
I think your statement probably answers though, "If the thinnest of legal pretexts can be found".
Posted by johnny at June 15, 2005 03:38 AM
johnny,
I'm just a good ole country boy, and sadly I have to agre with you. He should NOT be arrested. However, I also think that the Sherrif and other police should not attend the funeral or do so with blinders on. THat way this poor girls daddy and her brothers in arms can take that sniveling b@#$@!d and arrange for him to meet his maker.
"Vengeance is mine sayeth the Lord" but sometimes it is up to men to arrange the meetin
But then, justice ain't always the same as legal.
Posted by Country Boy at June 15, 2005 04:05 AM
Well, johnny, I guess my position is the one you mocked earlier: "we can still bitch when the Secret Service does that to people who try to attend the president's appearances." To the extent that the law is flexible, I hope he can be kept away entirely. And when someone stretches the law to cover protesters who aren't being wantonly cruel to grieving funeral-goers, then I'll most likely support the protesters even if I disagree with them. I suppose I should be ashamed of my inconsistency, but it's a very mild shame felt as a purely intellectual exercise.
Yes, once you make any exceptions to freedom of speech you've established a dangerous precedent. But the law does sometimes recognize exceptions. One class of them: Fighting words. You have no right to engage in conduct that's likely to incite a riot. Organizing people to go to a funeral and yell, We're glad she's dead! arguably falls under fighting words. It's a gray area, and if I were involved, I'd be firmly on the side of giving the family and friends, rather than Phelps, the benefit of the doubt.
One more thing: I do not condone assault. If this guy gets the crap beaten out of him, that would be wrong. I am not being snide. My disapproval would, again, be more intellectual than visceral, but it would be genuine. However, I don't agree that that would be remotely comparable to the beating death of Matthew Shepard.
I'm sorry. Assaulting someone who's picking a fight and trying to be cruel, and assaulting someone for being different (and alone, and physically tiny, therefore a safe target), are both wrong, but they are not equally evil, not by a long shot.
Posted by JPS at June 15, 2005 04:09 AM
Johnny -
Unfortunately you are correct. But...as I have said thousands of times before...there is legal and Constitutional...and there is RIGHT. One of these days some soldier or father of a soldier is going to do something very VERY wrong and launch into this guy. There will be misplaced teeth and a face rearranging. Soldier or Father thereof will go to jail as he should...but the video of the event would pay for his bail, legal defence, retirement, and a scholarship for as many people has he can count.
Mr. Phelps really needs to go over some of the scripture presented by Rocky Mtn. Lioness and while he's at it maybe reread the Greatest Commandment.
Posted by Wayne Fielder at June 15, 2005 04:11 AM
I used to live in Topeka, which is where this yutz is based, and I got to see his antics on a regular basis. I've been personally called a sodomite by his followers as I entered my church - he was picketing it for some reason. He tends to do that and nearly every human but his crew are sodomites. His family and church cohorts even have their own little compound over which he flies an upside-down American flag.
Having had experience with this loser, the best tact is to ignore him as much as possible. Arguing with him or insulting him is like sweet birdsong to him - you can't pay him a higher compliment - and he's keenly aware of how far he can push his legal rights. Ignoring him is hard to do at a funeral, I know, but the most effective tactic is to make him seem irrelevant.
What's really unfortunate is the kids of the church (who don't escape bullying at the public schools, I can assure you). Check out the fun photos of them on Phelps's website:
http://www.godhatesfags.com/photos/thisyear.html
-Dangerous Dan
Posted by Dangerous Dan at June 15, 2005 06:14 AM
Phelps should be beaten like an unwanted step child for doing this...then beaten again...
Posted by Dustyvet at June 15, 2005 06:16 AM
Of course that man can be and SHOULD BE barred from the funeral. He does not have the right to take advantage of the grieving family and manipulate their grief for his baseless aims.
The police chief should make sure that man gets nowhere the poor woman's family...
Posted by TGO at June 15, 2005 07:11 AM
Fred Phelps has been doing this for decades. This isn't really news.
Posted by N.Jordan at June 15, 2005 10:23 AM
Johnny: No legal pretext is needed at all. This is a private event, and Fred Phelps is not invited. He has publicly stated his intent to cause a disruption. If he shows up anywhere near the funeral, there is reasonable cause to assume that he's going to cause trouble; he can be pre-emptively removed from the situation.
Oh, the First Amendment doesn't apply to private actions take by private citizens. Fred Phelps being refused the right to speak at a private funeral is no more a First Amendment violation that, say, you getting banned from a message board (and I'm willing to bet that this has happened to you more than once.)
Posted by DensityDuck at June 15, 2005 04:08 PM
I can't even begin to describe how awful I think this guy is. He's a self-serving neanderthal and an embarrassment to all who really are Christians.
If God's sending IED's, maybe He could lob one Fred's way....
Posted by Sandra at June 15, 2005 10:23 PM
If I wanted to point out the ironic, I would point out how the boys and girls modeling the "God Hates Fags" t-shirts have their arms around each other in a show of affection.
Posted by Jon P at June 16, 2005 01:54 AM
While as much as I intellectually can recognise your arguments Johnny. Emotionally I know if this guy came within 10 feet of me I would have an extremely hard time of trying not to hurt him.
Posted by jvoss at June 16, 2005 07:31 PM
Thanks to all for the mostly thoughtful responses. I'll just pile all my replies to various points here.
JPS, I wasn't mocking about the SS. I bitch like hell when they do that. I agree with you about the fighting words exception. If he tried what you suggest, and I were on the jury, I could, depending on the circumstances, vote not guilty to a defendant who kicked his ass. I disagree with your point about Shepard though; the earlier posts here weren't saying he should get his ass kicked for disrupting the funeral, they said he should get his ass kicked because of who he is.
Mr. Wayne Fielder, I agree with you entirely.
Density Duck, if what you say is true, that it is a private funeral, of course you are correct. From what I saw in the article, it's going to be a public event. "Caldwell Police Chief Bob Sobba said he can't bar Phelps from going to the public funeral." There's a big difference there. It's also true, as you say, that this scum has no right to speak at the funeral. However, he has a right to stand across the street and say what he wants.
And no, I've never been barred from any message board anywhere. Why do you think I have been? Are you an habitue of message boards where defenders of the first amendment are banned regularly? Have you ever been banned from a message board?
If the guy breaks into a private ceremony and makes an ass of himself, as he is very obviously capable of doing, I have no real objection to whatever happens to him. OTOH, if he runs his mouth near a public gathering, and you think arresting him or physically silencing him is OK, then you have no moral or logical objection to the governemnt silencing its opponents.
JVoss, et al, I understand your feelings here, and I pretty much agree with them, but we can't base policy on feelings or emotions. No matter what you think of Phelps, the rules that apply to him apply to the rest of us. Silencing him may sound like a good idea, but when it applies to you or me we'll have a different opinion.
Johnny
Posted by johnny at June 17, 2005 02:16 AM
Willy: If we send Fred Phelps to Gitmo, chain him to the floor in a 100 degree room, and let him lie in his own filth for a day or two listening to Christina Aguilera music (or better yet, Culture Club), will you shut the hell up about the terrorists? 'Cause I'd take that deal.
Posted by ScottM at June 20, 2005 05:22 PM
Willy: If we send Fred Phelps to Gitmo, chain him to the floor in a 100 degree room, and let him lie in his own filth for a day or two listening to Christina Aguilera music (or better yet, Culture Club), will you shut the hell up about the terrorists? 'Cause I'd take that deal.
I made a quip to that effect earlier in this thread, and then Greyhawk cited it in a subsequent thread to illustrate that I am a leftist hypocrite. All of which reminded me of Gore Vidal's description of America as the "the land of the dull and the home of the literal"
So I'm afraid that our right-wing host has forced me to temporarily give up my sense of humor, and I must therefore tell you that I don't approve of torturing anyone at anytime. Not even Fred Phelps, however much one might be tempted to make an exception just once.
Posted by Willysnout at June 20, 2005 11:35 PM
Willysnout: '...quip...leftist hypocrite...give up my sense of humor...however much one might be tempted to make an exception *just once*.'
Haha..Hah....Hahahahahahahahahahahaha!!
Oh, but Willysnout, you ARE a hypocrite! Either that, or you are Greyhawk's very own 'Fred Phelps', who only drops by and tries to see how riled up he can (maybe) get someone. What a sad joke, though. You 'might be tempted' to 'torture' Fred Phelps for his free speech, repugnant though it may be, but you have nothing but compassion for those who have taken up arms against our country and are working to destroy it, and everyone in it (unless we convert to good Islamists and pay the dhimmi tax, of course).
(I can just hear your response, too; scripted, of course: 'You can't handle the truth; you hate the truth; you wouldn't recognize the blah blah, I'm just telling you blah blah blah blah...')
Dear dear Willysnout. You cry about taking Durbin's comments out of context. But you've done so much taking out of context yourself, so freely. That (again) is what makes you a hypocrite.
And if you want, I'll cite one SPECIFIC instance, only because it's so obvious what you did: You claim the International Committee of the Red Cross has stated that what we are doing in Gitmo is 'tantamount to torture', but you say that in YOUR OWN context of discussing Stalin and Hitler. In reality, the context was discussing the fact that the Geneva Conventions allow signatories to hold enemy combatants (NOT soldiers, as defined in the G.C.) until the end of the conflict. THAT, dear sir, is what they said was 'tantamount to torture'. Notice, also, that that phrase, 'tantamount to torture', is NOT calling it torture. It's saying that, in THEIR VIEW, holding these terrorists until the end of the conflict would be "like" torture. Again: in THEIR view. Unfortunately, they do not have the Geneva Conventions on their side.
That's just one instance, by the way. There are many others. Like, e.g., you claim (as did Senator Durbin) that we have forsaken the Geneva Conventions with respect to the detainees at Gitmo, when in reality, we are following it (almost) to the letter.
(CAUTION: I said 'almost', because the G.C. allows the US to summarily execute enemy combatants, as they are defined in the G.C. And, well, we haven't done that, have we?. . .OOOOHHHHHH! Maybe that's what you mean by stating that we aren't following the Geneva Conventions with these terrorists! EXECUTIONER! Forthwith to the gallows!)
Posted by pamela at June 21, 2005 01:29 AM
If he is, as has been talked about elsewhere, a scammer looking for litigation, then I suspect he has just never had his ass kicked CORRECTLY. I also suspect that if he and his band of merry pranksters continue with this modus operendi they will soon become case studies for phrenologists everywhere.
Posted by thirdfinger at June 21, 2005 11:45 AM
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