Greyhawk:

Can anyone tell where Americans United gets most of its money and how much Barry Lynn gets paid? I am so sick of him popping up everywhere. And where did the Rev. Lynn get his divinity degree? I bet a good Philly cheesesteak he is a phony- any takers?

Well, my group has some pretty serious charges against the practices of religious groups [ we really hate, because, you know, they practice their fake religion and all and seem to believe it.] Uh, did I say that bracketed part out loud?

Next up - Klan gives key quote questioning racial preferences! Alert the media.

Doesn't it bother anyone else to hear a commanding officer tell his troops "cadets were accountable first to their God"?

I agree that a soldier should not obey an immoral order. And that is a judgement call where a soldier's faith is involved.

But at the same time our system is based on troops following orders. And as a nation of laws, that our laws set what is and is not a moral order.

If faith comes first, then each soldier is left to make their own decision. And what of those soldiers that choose to obey "thou shall not kill"?

What of the soldier that says he or she will not serve in Iraq because their faith says a pre-emptive invasion is wrong?

- dave

David:
The general has not forced cadets to attend church services, nor does it seem to me that he’s indicated a preference of any religion (e.g., Christianity vice Buddhism). The email he sent to cadets might have been well intentioned, and there is no un-truth to what he wrote.

People who profess a belief in God will normally place God’s law ahead of man’s law. In more than a quarter century of military service, I never received an illegal or immoral order, nor did I ever issue one. All military personnel have a duty to follow “lawful orders,” only.

With respect to “Thou Shalt Not Kill,” there is a modification: “Give unto Caesar that which is Caesar’s, Give unto God that which is God’s.” I personally see no conflict with the Mosaic Law in service to one’s country. However, when military personnel cannot in good conscious serve as a combatant they may apply for conscientious objector status. If status is granted, they may be assigned to non-combat roles, or separated from the service.

Do NOT underestimate Barry Lynn. He's an extremely intelligent and skillful advocate. He use to be on the old "Crossfire" radio show, the precursor to the CNN show, debating Pat Buchanan. He held his own and more. And whatever you think of Buchanan, he's a tough debater.

Granted, Lynn's a loon. But looniness combined with intelligence equals a tough foe.

SMG

The Navigators is a religious group centered at C. Springs which when I was around the Academy used pretty strange tactics on Catholic cadets and their girlfriends. Attacking them on their beliefs on the Pope and Virgin Mary. Ten "reborn" cadets arguing against one Catholic at a "bible study" until they "wanted" to be reborn. Also a heirarchy of Bible study groups where dating was only allowed within the heirarchies. No dating the freshman by senior bible study members was allowed.

If Academy grads and cadets are daring to speak up maybe you should honor and respect what they have gone through in order to do so.

I was around the Academy for 13 years, my dad was a tow pilot and sponsored a lot of cadets-one of which is now in line to be an astronaut and this story unfortunately through FIRSTHAND experience rings very true to me.

I don’t know how anybody can take Barry Lynn seriously as a “reverend” or as a balanced, disinterested expert in how religion should be accommodated in the public life of the United States.

Lynn is clearly on a mission to eliminate any vestiges of religion from public life. Lynn has been involved in lawsuits to end pre-meal prayers at VMI (Mellen v. Bunting, 341 F.3d 312 (2003)). He publicly advocates against prison ministry, working to keep our prisoners as morality free as possible (The NewsHour with Jim Lehrer, September 1, 2003). He is against the pledge of allegiance, alleging it is proselytization to bring people to Christianity (CNN Crossfire, July 5, 2002). He has advocated for the elimination of firefighter’s chaplains (Los Angeles Times June 17, 2003) – remember what Father Mychal Judge meant to the men dying on 9/11? And he is on record as being against chaplains in the military, something I’m sure every dying servicemember, who has fought to defend the First Amendment, would appreciate. (Hardball, CNBC News Transcripts, July 21, 1999). This doesn’t even scratch the surface.

David Thielen:

Take a moment to read Tolstoy's The Kingdom of God is Within You. Mr. Tolstoy slays your argument about troops and accountability quite nicely I think.

"With respect to “Thou Shalt Not Kill,” there is a modification: “Give unto Caesar that which is Caesar’s, Give unto God that which is God’s.” "

Actually, the original translation of that commandment is 'thou shalt not commit murder'. There is a big difference between killing and murdering.

"Lynn's group was granted control of the military promotion system by the Imaginary Rights act of 1998."

*snicker*

"An" (comment #6) says the Navigators prevented senior cadet Bible study members from dating freshman Bible study members. This is not the Navigators policy. This is USAFA policy and has been as long as I can remember. (I grew up there, have a father, brother and husband who are grads.) No upperclassman may date a four degree until after graduation when those four degrees become third classmen before the new class comes in.

As for the rest of this argument: is the climate at USAFA more opressively "Christian" than it used to be or are there just more people who want to complain about it?

Hey Gang

Buzz checking in again. I'm so incensed about "Reverend" Lynn I'm force to comment while on my anniversary vacation with my wife. As the beach and Mojitos call, I'm raging back in the room.

1st point, if the USAF, Congress and the POTUS think BG Weida is deserving of a second star, that tells me they think Lynn is in unfounded whack job. The GO screening process is much too tight to think they haven't thought this through.

Secondly, freshmen cadets are not allowed to date ANYONE. They're not even recognized as cadets until "Recognition" occurs in the spring.

Finally, the Navigators is a worldwide, international Christian organization that does happen to be located in C Springs. Having been in a Bible Study myself with their former president (a retired USAF 2-star ironically enough) they condone no such behavior.

Again, my experience as a commander at USAFA tells me this is all BS. There is absolutely no institutional pressure to believe, practice, or promote any religious views. NONE! As I said in an earlier post, I had to provide my Wicca cadets the same rights and access to worship as I did my Jewish cadets, my Islamic cadets and, yes, my Christian cadets.

ummmm... If that was really Buzz Patterson who
posted that last comment, there's no one who
knows better than he, or who is prepared to
"tell it like it is" than he.

AJ: If you really want to know where Lynn's group gets it money, you can call them and ask for a copy of their most recent IRS 990 form. I'd bet they receive a lot of donations, and may also recover money in lawsuits they file. Many nonprofits are funded as such. As for being a "phony," I don't know how one might judge that. A person's religious beliefs aer private and essentially unprovable. The Phillistines in DC who wear their religion on their sleeve and make a point to be photographed as often as they can with their heads bowed are the phonies, IMHO.

As to the notion about whether or not a soldier is first accountable to his/her god, I would think that a truly religious person would think that. Someone in charge of a government institution probably shouldn't make such a statement, unless if be viewed as an endorsement of a religion, but my guess is that most truly religious people put "god's laws" ahead of "man's laws." Of course, those same people must realize that while they are living here on Earth, they must follow man's laws, even when they conflict with god's laws, or else accept man's punishment.

Jaes, your query about whether the AFA is more oppressive or if there are just more people complaining is a good one. My guess would be that it is the latter, and that such complaints are a good thing. The military of today which is regularly missing its recruiting goals needs to be put on alert now that they cannot be a Christians-only club. We're getting to the point where beggars can't be choosers, and if atheists, wiccans, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, and others see the military as hostile environments, they will be less likely to join. At least, that's my opinion.

Gregy

It's me. Still trying to keep my finger on the pulse of USAFA and definitely still trying to out Left attacks on our military. Attempts like these are counter-productive to what we do and anger the hell out of me.

Buzz

I think this is "accountable to god" qoute is being taken out of context and being misinterpreted. I was told by a wise chaplain once that you must have some type of spiritual belief system to fall back on at the end of the day. To stay mentally healthy you must have some way of atoning or finding mental peace. Alot of folks find this in religion or in a God of some type. But it doesn't have to be this way. It could simply be meditation or exercising. I believe that this is what Gen. Weida meant. It does not mean that you can disobey orders. It just means that when the stuff hits the fan and you are stressed and think you can't take anymore, you have to have a way of relaxing and finding some answers for yourself.. Just my two cents.

I'm a USAFA '95 grad. Lynn is a misdirected but dangerous soul who needs help and compassion. He's obviously very angry about something from his past. Militaries of more nations than just ours have traditionally recruited clergy of many faiths to minister to the spiritual needs of the troops. (Even fire departments, police departments, and prisons have chaplains, who often work voluntarily) DoD and congress see fit to fund and staff a chaplain corps that represents all major religions. All major bases have chaplains, and yes, chaplains are deployed into nasty combat zones as well. Point being, even congress realizes the importance of meeting spiritual needs of men and women in uniform. Now Lynn, in all his man-given wisdom, says that all history, tradition, and precedent are wrong. In my 4 years at USAFA, I was invited to many Christian activities, but I was never pressured or shunned as a result of not going. No one I know was shunned either. I do remember one guy who was a "proselytizing atheist" so I'm sure you could dig up a few people who could complain about Christians, but my guess is they'd complain regardless of the school they attended or how nominal the beliefs of the offending Christians.