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That quote matches what he said in his report. Towards the end, he even mentions consulting a psychiatrist for his opinion on the abuse, and the psych apparently believed it was likely a small, unsupervised group.
Of course, that doesn't fit the political needs of some, so it CAN'T be the story.
Posted by Robert Crawford at May 11, 2004 07:31 PM
Unfortunately Mark Dayton is from Minnesota, not Michigan.
Posted by punslinger at May 11, 2004 08:11 PM
Unfortunately people who achieve satisfaction from eagerly correcting others on trivial details are not just irritating, they're assholes.
MI vs. MN...a fatal wound to the argument.
Posted by Call me snake at May 11, 2004 09:35 PM
It doesn't matter. They're chopping off the heads of U.S. contractors in Iraq in response to sexual humiliation. This story is almost over. If they kill that U.S. soldier that they're holding hostage in response to the abuse at Abu Ghraib I'm gonna start a campaign calling for Dan Rather's resignation. And this story will disappear.( Not because I called for Rather's resignation, but becausae it will no longer have an audience.)
The enemy may be aware of our penchant for self-immolation when we make a mistake, but they can't keep from acting like savages nonetheless. It's difficult to engender sympathy as a weak, defenseless victim in the West if you go around behaving as if it's the Middle Ages.
Posted by Kerry Is Unelectable at May 11, 2004 09:37 PM
A vain plea, maybe, but I'd like to see the emphasis shift from Dueling Death Porn and related spin to something like, uh, the situation in Najaf, the situation elsewhere in the country, elections preparation and the status of preparations for the handoff on 6/30....
Just trivial things, I know. Sort of like asking in 1944 for coverage of battles rather than what we all know was the REAL story, ie, the rapes of millions of German women by the Red Army and the torture of Nazi prisoners by a few GI Joes.
Posted by tombo at May 11, 2004 09:53 PM
Perhaps punslinger said "unfortunately" because he is from Minnesota and having Mark Dayton as one of your senators is truly unfortunate.
No need to attack the guy simply because he corrects a factual inaccuracy though.
Posted by Anonymous at May 11, 2004 09:59 PM
CBS seems to have a fetish for snuff porn.
They were also the only network to continuously show video of people jumping from the top of the World Trade Center. Now this.
Pretty disgusting. I guess it's sweep weeks, and Fox News is cleaning their clocks. The snuff audience is their only hope for ratings.
Posted by Mick McMick at May 11, 2004 10:19 PM
MG Taguba is in my unit. Every time I've heard him speak, he seems to be sincere, honest, and well versed in what he's talking about. I've never heard anything about him that would lead me to believe his effort here is nothing short of heroic. No spin, no desire to confuse the facts or protect anyone.
That can't be said for the way the press will handle the report though, or his testimony on Capitol Hill.
Posted by Diggs at May 11, 2004 10:38 PM
The zombies left over from the 60's are "soi disant" opinion formers and will fall stiffly in line behind any parade - flag draped coffins, faux memorial readings of the dead, pictures of non-lethal abuse - designed to discredit their government and its military.
It sickens me when I think they may be winning. Yesterday morning it was Laura Bush on ABC answering Dianne Sawyer's questions about the abuse. Now for all her endearing qualities - she's surely one of the most articulate and good looking First Ladies in a long time - I would much prefer some hard ass telling Dianne how people are no damn good but what separates liberal democracies from the rest are principles, leadership and accountability and +NOT+ telling Dianne she cannot bear to look at the pictures.
Sheesh.
Posted by Theodopoulos Pherecydes at May 11, 2004 10:43 PM
Unfortunately Mark Dayton is from Minnesota, not Michigan.
I live in Michigan, and I think it is fortunate that Dayton is from Minnesota, not here. We have it bad enough with the likes of Carl Levin, Debbie Stabenow, and David Bonior.
Posted by Scaramonga at May 11, 2004 10:53 PM
I'd try to get a new battery installed in our (sorry to day, Minnesota's) Senator Dayton tonight, but it's much harder to get the AI rebooted. I'm very happy I didn't vote for him, and evem my wife is shaking her head.
Posted by htom at May 11, 2004 10:58 PM
career was limited by his race? geez. i've worked with the general when he was the Warhorse commander (2BDE, 4ID). his BDE was one of the worst i ever saw do an NTC rotation. undisciplined, incompetent, and flat out bad leadership throughout the entire BDE. i was shocked years later to see that he had been promoted. make no mistake, the army officer corps promoted this guy simply because they have reserved a spot for an asian male in the general officer ranks.
Posted by Captain Scarlet at May 11, 2004 11:05 PM
Unfortunately Mark Dayton is from Minnesota, not Michigan.
Posted by: punslinger at May 11, 2004 08:11 PM
Fortunately, Mark Dayton is from Minnesota, not Michigan.
Jabba, Michigan;^)
Posted by Jabba the Nutt at May 11, 2004 11:22 PM
Well, any minute now the apologies will be pouring in from the middle east.
Posted by Michael Murphy at May 11, 2004 11:55 PM
For all of Mark Dayton's posturing about the importance of the pictures, he glosses over the fact that in January the military started its investigation into the abuse.
But more interesting is the fact that he was one of 17 Congressman who were contacted by a man whose nephew was under investigation for the prisoner abuse. This man had the pictures of the prison abuse that were offered to and ignored by Dayton and the other senators. On March 23 in frustration he contacted Col David Hackworth and was put in contact with CBS 60 minII. They eventually released the pics.
Soldier's Family Set in Motion Chain of Events on Disclosure
The NYT conveniently leaves out the list of Senators:
Jack Reed
Mark Dayton
Robert Byrd
Bill Nelson
Evan Bye
Ted Kennedy
Ben Nelson
Hillary Clinton
Joe Lieberman
Dan Acaca
Paul Sarbanes
? Rockerfeller
? couldn't read my handwriting
and John Warner.
All are Democrats except for John Warner. List via Rush.
Posted by paul at May 12, 2004 12:41 AM
I saw Taguba this morning. The first thing he said was that it was a problem of leadership, poor supervision and zero training. So all those headline from the NYT etc. are quite accurate. He also said he didn't have evidence that the soldiers were told to commit the abuse, but he still blamed deficiencies in leadership, supervision and training. Of course, we'll find out the whole truth about whether or not orders came from someone higher when the scapegoats go on trial.
Posted by richard at May 12, 2004 03:23 AM
Gosh, Richard, why do we need a trial? You seem to have things all figured out already. You know damn well CNN, the NYT, et al. want everyone to think "leadership" means Rumsfeld, Myers and Bush.
Posted by Mike at May 12, 2004 03:53 AM
Richard,
Scapegoats? Uh, weren't they in the pictures? Doesn't look like they were doing something they didn't want to do. Setting aside photoshop conspiracies, how can they possibly be scapegoats? Sure, it would be nice and all for you and your terrorist allies to blame "leadership" as if this was the result of official policies - in which case the victims would number in the thousands, as would the photos. But they weren't and they don't.
We aren't going to surrender due to a crimes. Go back to trying to dial up Osama's remains on the shortwave for a new set of orders, loser.
Posted by Tim at May 12, 2004 04:13 AM
Don't worry folks. No need to pick on Richard. Remember the tin foil hat quotient.............black helicopters Richard?
Posted by Jake at May 12, 2004 04:57 AM
Gen. Taguba is a fixer- he is adept at streamlining processes and cleaning up problems. From my understanding he was one of the closet reformers who has been a cog in the steamroller of change and reorganization that Rummy has instituted. Taguba is a great soldier and an able General, and I doubt that he would have been put on this assignment if Rummy or anyone else had any doubts.
Posted by Gerry Owen at May 12, 2004 05:45 AM
It's unfortunate that Mark Dayton is from anywhere. Another on my list of "graves to piss on" right there with Peter Jennings, Franken, Moore and a host of other shitheads.
Posted by Buster at May 12, 2004 06:06 AM
Sen. Dayton's sputtering is beyond embarrasing; even to those who don't have to live in Minn.
At least when "W" is inarticulate, he's actually trying to say SOMETHING!
Posted by Harry B. at May 12, 2004 06:21 AM
The Berg family was sandbagged in their grief by an AP reporter who told them for the first time that their family member had been decapitated and the video of the murder was online. An AP photographer was on hand to record the family's response. The father collapsed on the sidewalk in tears.
If you have any comments about the AP ambushing a grieving family in this way, and about their eagerness to print photos of humiliation inflicted on Iraqi POW's but not the torture/murder of Americans, go to this link of the directors and board members of the AP.
http://www.apme.com/about/directors_rev.shtml
The CEO of AP is Tom Curley; you may need to drop him a note via snail mail.
The flack is Jack Stokes at 212-621-1720.
Posted by virge at May 12, 2004 07:15 AM
I don't get it, Greyhawk.
"the theory being the man was fed up with the Army stonewalling and using his report to get the innocent instead of the guilty"
"If the press and congressional Democrats continue their unprecedented support of the Abu Ghraib torture squad[...]
Could you cite/link some actual examples of this?
What I don't get about your overall point is that you seem to equate wanting to expose anything higher up the chain or any kind of system/process with seeing the known offenders as innocent. Looking at the bigger picture is not the same as excusing the actions of the ones already charged.
It's really quite simple:
(1) The ones that are already charged did wrong, and they should have refused to carry out orders that were illegal, immoral, or in violation of the Geneva Convention. So put them on trial and deal with them accordingly and properly.
(2) Given that, why should we let the people off the hook who gave those orders? That too must be properly investigated, exposed and, if necessary, brought to trial.
Now tell me: why would insisting on (2) imply that (1) is not necessary? It's patently obvious that the two go hand in hand.
Posted by yowser at May 12, 2004 08:25 AM
The Army's command philosophy is simple: "The commander is responsible for everything his unit does or fails to do." So clearly there was a leadership failure at some level. Equally clearly, there were failures in discipline and supervision. Taguba's report was accurate. How the press choses to portray that report is a legitimate cause for us to complain to the media involved.
Posted by OldBull at May 12, 2004 09:36 AM
Sorry guys, the spin just doesn't work. I'm a 45-year-old female who's never been NEAR the military, and I wouldn't need training or leadership to tell me that what was being done in those photos was a no-no. There may be others who were culpable, and if so they should be exposed (sorry for the pun) and punished, but citing a lack of training and leadership as the cause for the problem is just plain silly.
Posted by the beckster at May 12, 2004 02:27 PM
I think it's pretty clear the leadership that MG Taguba is referring to is the leadership of the mid level Army managers in the prison; from the BG in charge to her staffers and low level commanders. I would completely concur with this assessment...it appears as if the interrogators had run of the joint and the MPs were not told by their leadership to ensure prisoner safety. The press, more than willing to obfuscate and confuse, used the vague term "leadership" in an attempt to implicate all. But in reality, it's not specific enough. It should be "military (Army National Guard?) leadership of Abu Gharid".
The next huge fight will not be in public; rather, it will be between the Guard and Reserves and Active Duty Army. There were no AD soldiers involved in this mess.
Posted by dcthrowback at May 12, 2004 03:12 PM
Weren't they calling for heads to roll last week? Well, lo and behold...
Posted by K. at May 12, 2004 03:16 PM
The 72nd MP Company (the unit in charge of the prison before the 372nd MP Company took command due to rotation) was asked by MI to keep the prisoners sleep-deprived through questionable means, but they refused the orders AS THEY SHOULD HAVE. Why the 372nd didn't is anybody's guess, and why MI isn't coming up for its turn in the barrel is similarly anybody's guess.
http://www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_home/2004/May-08-Sat-2004/news/23836732.html
Posted by Mitchell Morris at May 12, 2004 03:27 PM
Virge - thanks for that link and info. While the entire thing sickens me beyond tears and anger, I'm very very pissed off that it was the press that told the family the details and then jumped on it.
The family should have been told the whole story from the get go.
This same sort of thing happened when my father died. They left a flippin' note on our door and it was broadcast on the radio before we made it home.
The headline I'm seeing now is that Nick's father blames the US government. I believe that is just a knee jerk reaction to the grief. That is just the sort of reaction those buzzards were looking for. You can bet I'll be firing off some emails on this one.
Posted by Tammi at May 12, 2004 05:43 PM
Couple of things - first of all, the young ADULTS who performed what they obviously thought were cute sex acts in the prison grew up in the Clinton era, exposed to perverted sex even in the Oval Office that even our congress just blew off as no big thing. So they probably didn't think what they were doing would upset anyone in Washington. Second, US Senators and Congressmen need to buy a dictionary - the same ones who have been calling the embarrassment of prisoners "atrocities" were out there today also referring to Nick Berg's beheading as an "atrocity." They are not even remotely similar, so which one is the REAL atrocity, Senators?
Posted by TJ at May 12, 2004 06:39 PM
What Taguba clearly said, by the way, was that there was a failure of command from the Brigade on DOWN. That means that the lady general was doing such a terrible job (she did not make her soldiers wear their uniforms, salute officers, or even say "Sir") that she was replaced by someone else (couldn't fire her - she is a WOMAN). Taguba NEVER said that there was a failure of leadership at the TOP. He made it as clear as could be that the problem was in the immediate leadership of that unit, and that he believed those six or seven soldiers came up with these pranks all by themselves. Congress needs to just butt out now, and let the court martials begin, because if they keep talking about it, they will prejudice those cases and the soldiers will all walk away free.
Posted by TJ at May 12, 2004 06:45 PM
What is repeatedly NOT mentioned is that congress was notified both in Jan and Mar about the investigations, but had no interest in getting more information about them at that time. That is what makes the grandstanding by these Senators so outrageous.
Posted by kafka at May 12, 2004 06:52 PM
One thing that seeme to slip everyones view here. These people did not have a clue as to how to handle prisoners. That everyone seems to agree on. Then explain to me how these people had the insight to realize that the Islamics would be terrified of sex and beening seen naked? ( Maybe that why the wear "ten day sh--ers"?)I smell ( no pun here) the workings of other Iraqis or Arab translators here as advice givers. Also, consider this, have you ever seen the commercial for "Girls gone wild!" on TV. Some of those "tortures" seem the same.
BTW; Has anyone noticed in similarity the folowing;
.....that there were four (4) assassins in Fallujah, who did the murder of the contractors supposedly with Al Za there in Fallujah,
.....four or five who beheaded the poor guy over the weekend again with Al Z there.
.....Danile Pearl was alledgedly assassinated by Al Z.
Traveling serial killers?
Posted by Bob at May 12, 2004 08:07 PM
You all might look at the Taguba Report, available over at http://216.109.117.135/search/cache?p=Taguba+Report&ei=UTF-8&cop=mss&u=www.npr.org/iraq/2004/prison_abuse_report.pdf&w=taguba+report&d=BBADF3CC4D&c=482&yc=1597&icp=1
Some of Taguba's "Findings of Fact" in Part 3 of the Investigation:
**********************
9. (U) I find that this ambiguous command relationship was exacerbated by a CJTF-7 Fragmentary Order (FRAGO) 1108 issued on 19 November 2003. Paragraph 3.C.8,
Assignment of 205th MI Brigade Commander’s Responsibilities for the Baghdad
Central Confinement Facility, states as follows: 3.C.8. A. (U) 205 MI BRIGADE. 3.C.8. A. 1. (U) EFFECTIVE IMMEDIATELY COMMANDER 205
MI BRIGADE ASSUMES RESPONSIBILITY FOR THE
BAGHDAD CONFINEMENT FACILITY (BCCF) AND IS
APPOINTED THE FOB COMMANDER. UNITS CURRENTLY AT
ABU GHRAIB (BCCF) ARE TACON TO 205 MI BRIGADE FOR
“SECURITY OF DETAINEES AND FOB PROTECTION.” Although not supported by BG Karpinski, FRAGO 1108 made all of the MP units at
Abu Ghraib TACON to the Commander, 205th MI Brigade. This effectively made an
MI Officer, rather than an MP Officer, responsible for the MP units conducting
detainee operations at that facility. This is not doctrinally sound due to the different
missions and agendas assigned to each of these respective specialties. (ANNEX 31)
-----------
Tuguba then goes on to make several recommendations --including recommending that several officers from the BGeneral on down be relieved of command. He then recommends:
---------
13. (U) I find that there is sufficient credible information to warrant an Inquiry UP Procedure 15, AR 381-10, US Army Intelligence Activities, be conducted to
determine the extent of culpability of MI personnel, assigned to the 205th MI Brigade
and the Joint Interrogation and Debriefing Center (JIDC) at Abu Ghraib (BCCF).
Specifically, I suspect that COL Thomas M. Pappas, LTC Steve L. Jordan, Mr.
Steven Stephanowicz, and Mr. John Israel were either directly or indirectly
responsible for the abuses at Abu Ghraib (BCCF) and strongly recommend immediate
disciplinary action as described in the preceding paragraphs as well as the initiation of
a Procedure 15 Inquiry to determine the full extent of their culpability. (ANNEX 36)
Note: Steven Stephanowicz, and Mr. John Israel
were the CACI civilian contractors
Posted by Don Williams at May 12, 2004 09:30 PM
What seems strange in all this was putting the MP company under the command (TACON) of the MI commander --as MG Taguba notes.
I would think the person responsible for that FRAGO would be Lieutenant General (LTG) Ricardo S. Sanchez, Commander, Combined Joint Task Force Seven (CJTF-7) -- which is making the Pentagon sweat because that FRAGO was evidently driven by the recommendations of Maj General Miller (of Guantanomo Bay) to the CJTF-7.
Defense Undersecretary Stephen Gambone, one of Rumsfeld's subordinates, fell over himself yesterday trying to explain the innocent purpose of this to Congress.
See http://www.iht.com/articles/519413.html
In the course of which, we saw civilian appointee Gambone arguing (erronously) with Army Major General Taguba over what TACON means.
Taguba's investigation was only part of the work --he notes that another Article 15 investigation needs to be done into the actions of the Military Intelligence command. Which I kinda suspect is not going to happen.
My understanding is that MG Taguba got orders last Friday sending him over to command the Army Reserve -- one way of getting him out of the Middle East and an example to any other officers thinking about showing similar backbone.
Posted by Don Williams at May 12, 2004 10:08 PM
Don-Perhaps MG Taguba has special insights to the defeciencies of Reserve and Guard training and readiness. How is giving a general officer a command a slight? The Ar 15 investigation into MI is ongoing by a General Fay (sp?) and is expected to be completed by early June. Me thinks your cynicism is showing.
Posted by Forbes at May 13, 2004 12:23 AM
I was sloppy with my language --here is the statement in the NY Times re Taguba's next assignment and how it's viewed in the Army:
------------
"The Pentagon announced Friday that he would soon take a new post in Washington as a deputy assistant secretary for reserve affairs, a move that in Army culture is not seen as a major promotion."
--------
Taguba is currently deputy commanding general of the Third Army and of the Coalition Forces Land Component Command. He hasn't had command of a division yet --looks like he won't in the future either. Still , you have a point. It's not as if he was passed over or forced into early retirement. It does give him an opportunity to fix problems he's identified.
It does seem strange to announce the appointment just before he was to go up to Congress -- success in his new position makes him very dependent upon cooperation and support from the political appointees at the Pentagon.
My guess is that he's not likely to get much friendly cooperation from the Guard and Reserve establishment given the black eye his report gave them.
Posted by Don Williams at May 13, 2004 05:24 AM
Here's latest report from lawyer for Private England--the West Virginia woman seen in the Iraqi prison photos
-----------
Ra'Shadd said England's commanders at Fort Bragg are allowing her time to cope with the attention that has followed the prisoner abuse scandal, and ensuring the five-months-pregnant soldier makes regular doctor visits.
"She's sad and she's alone and she's pregnant and she's kind of moody," Ra'Shadd said.
-------------
Brrrr. If they have any sense, some spooks should have just gotten a chill on their testicles.
Posted by Don Williams at May 13, 2004 05:43 AM
We need to get out of Iraq!!!!!! The people have fought since the beginning of time and will fight brutially till the end of time!!! It was an awful mistake to go there. thses peple for the most part are just evil and demonic and Nothing will ever change that!!11
Posted by gayle rohr at May 14, 2004 04:36 PM
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