Prev | List | Random | Next
Sgt Edmondson has come home.
Edmondson and three other members of a Pennsylvania Guard unit were accused of abusing prisoners in their custody while stationed at a POW camp in Iraq. Edmonson elected to accept a reduction in rank to Pvt and an other-then-honorable discharge in lieu of court martial. (The other three elected to face court martial.)
All are under a gag order, but one, Staff Sgt. Scott McKenzie, had given an account of the event in an e-mail he sent home:
As MPs were unloading 44 enemy prisoners of war from a bus, McKenzie said, "10 to 12 resisted as we escorted them."
He said he and Girman were escorting one prisoner who kicked at Girman's leg, knocking both MPs off balance. "I regained my balance and had to use force to bring the [prisoner] down to the sand in order to regain control," he said.
McKenzie said he had to use "foot sweeps/trips" to bring down two other combative prisoners and saw another prisoner grab Canjar's forearm, prompting a struggle.
"I know in my mind ... that what we did was right and we are being made an example of by a colonel who wants to see a certain MP burned and the rest of us are going down also," he wrote.
McKenzie's account above can be found in the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette.
According to the AP,
Miss Edmondson, a former student and security guard at the University of Scranton, would not discuss the charges in detail yesterday, saying she probably would be called back to Iraq to testify. But, speaking by telephone from her parents' home in Clarks Summit, about 110 miles north of Philadelphia, she said conditions in the camp were frightening and unsafe. Sometimes as few as 100 MPs were guarding 8,000 prisoners, she said. "We were doing our jobs, and that's about all I can say. People don't understand the conditions out there. It is war. It is not back home where everybody is safe," Miss Edmondson said. "Mistakes will be made. People are dying. Our soldiers are dying every day. But they seem to want to be nicer to the Iraqi POWs than our own people." Miss Edmondson said she will try to get her old job back at the university. Her discharge, which came after a demotion from sergeant to private, probably will bar her from pursuing her plan to become a police officer.
A grass roots support campaign is underway in their home state of Pennsylvania, and opinions like this one are popping up on the internet and in print media:
A story that you will not read in any of America?s elite media is rapidly unfolding in Kuwait. Four American soldiers, accused by Amnesty International, have been charged by the U.S. military with abusing Iraqi PoW?s on May 12, 2003. Amnesty International misses the warm and fuzzy compassion of the former Hussein regime.
As reported outside the U.S., "The four military police from a Pennsylvania-based US army reserve unit are accused of punching, kicking and breaking bones of prisoners at Camp Bucca, the largest US-run PoW camp in Iraq." Maybe these four, in the tradition of Uday Hussein, were just trying to get a date Iraqi style.
The four Pennsylvanian soldiers, Master Sgt. Lisa Girman, Pittson; Staff Sgt. Scott McKenzie, Clearfield; Sgt. Shawna Edmondson, South Abington Township; and Spc. Tim Canjar, Madison Township response: "...they acted only in self-defense, and that the 44 prisoners being shipped into Camp Bucca...were rebelling." "A few of my MPs (military police) were assaulted by the enemy prisoners, and we had to use force to regain control, all justifiable," accused Staff Sergeant Scott McKenzie said in an e-mail to relatives.
And speaking of e-mail...without it, this story would still be locked in a vault. The U.S. military authorities have placed a gag order on those involved and refuse to even release the names of the accused. Well, at least the Associated Press is good for something.
Just so that you can feel the evil of the four accused: Girman, 35, a state police officer stationed in Monroe County, served in Desert Storm and was wounded; Staff Sgt. Scott McKenzie volunteered to serve in both Bosnia and Korea so married reservists wouldn't have to go; Sgt. Shawna Edmondson is a security officer at the University of Scranton and Spc. Tim Canjar is 21 years old and enlisted after 9-11. Real tough hombres compared to the abused Iraqis.
But support for the four is not limited to right wing conservative types, outraged at the "wrongness" of the entire story. The case is also (perhaps ironically) attracting support from the Left, who can gleefully (and wrongfully) use it to bash the administration. (Admittedly though the support for these Military Police from that sector is currently hesitant and without a certain level of enthusiastic commitment reserved for Mumia-style cop killers.)
A look at local coverage from Pennsylvania:
Former soldier disillusioned Support of superiors lacking, ex-MP says By LAUREN ROTH Wilkes-Barre (Pa.) Times Leader
SOUTH ABINGTON TWP. - Former Pvt. Shawna Edmondson, 24, demoted from her previous rank and discharged from the Army, said Monday that incompetent leadership at Camp Bucca led to the alleged beating incident for which three local military police soldiers face courts-martial.
Edmondson was a sergeant on May 12 when the military alleges she and three others from the 320th Military Police Battalion in Ashley kicked, punched and broke the bones of Iraqi prisoners arriving at the prison camp in Iraq.
"They weren't like our regular, everyday prisoners," she said. They were high-profile prisoners, some of whom she could identify by name, though she declined to be more specific.
Edmondson said she is not denying her own role. "I wanted to take responsibility for what happened," she said. So she asked her military attorney about arranging a discharge. "I wanted to get out of the Army."
Master Sgt. Lisa Girman, 35, of Hazleton, Sgt. 1st Class Scott McKenzie, 38, of Clearfield, and Spc. Tim Canjar, 21, of Moscow, face courts-martial on Jan. 20, 25 and 30, respectively. The charges they face, including dereliction of duty, obstruction of justice and cruelty and maltreatment of an enemy prisoner of war, could send each of them to military prison for more than 20 years.
Perhaps lacking some of the drama of the Lt Col West case, (see here and here)this case has progressed farther (Lt Col West's article 32 hearing is concluded but awaiting decision) with much less notice of most of the public. While Col West's story is "front page news" in the blogosphere, the "Camp Bucca Four" are MIA.
An early AP report can be found here.
And coverage of the article 32 hearing by AP's Tarek Al-Issawi is here.
"...The court martial will be held at both Camp Doha and at Camp Bucca to allow Iraqi prisoners of war to testify."
Update 5 Jan 2004:
The three soldiers who originally elected to face court martial have instead accepted non-judicial punishment:
-- Three American soldiers have been discharged from military service for abusing Iraqi prisoners, the U.S. Army said Monday.
The soldiers had been facing a court-martial proceeding, but agreed instead to a nonjudicial one. In addition to the discharges, two soldiers had their ranks lowered, and all three were ordered to forfeit pay for two months.
The soldiers were military police in a unit from Pennsylvania deployed a southern Iraq camp when the abuse occurred May 12, according to the Army. An investigation began after other soldiers saw and reported the incident. WASHINGTON (CNN)
Original post: 2003-11-29 16:17:41
Note that comments on this and all posts are open and unmoderated, although obscene remarks will be deleted when discovered. No claim is made regarding truth or accuracy of comments, to include identity of the commenter. In all matters the reader is advised to draw his or her own conclusions.
I will jump on the bandwagon on this too. Are there any petitions to be signed in their behalf?
Since when does the Army allow its authority over the POWs to be challenged? Especially by the Army itself?
I smell a rat.Posted by Cricket at November 30, 2003 01:05 PM
I'm not aware of any petitions. Perhaps Amnesty International will aid them after they're convicted.Posted by Greyhawk at November 30, 2003 05:12 PM
it is time to call the local congress critter.
I've never met anyone who wanted to be a Soldier more than Scott McKenzie. I've never met anyone who had as much faith in the system as he. On the eve of a new year, Scott's on his way home. As communication has been limited the past two days, it is our assumption, the Army no longer calls him a Soldier. That they have taken 15 years of Honorable and Meritorious service and said--over an alleged incident, it doesn't matter. The Army wonders why Soldiers are leaving without a look back.Posted by Maggie at December 31, 2003 01:53 PM
The author seems to have left out the fact that these four soldiers were SEEN "punching, kicking and breaking bones of prisoners at Camp Bucca," and turned in by their comrades. It was the comrades' testimony that apparently convinced the four to cop a plea. There's no excuse for US soldiers to abuse prisoners of war. These four according to CNN, kicked prisoners in the groin, even holding open their legs to inflict maximum pain. That's called torture. For shame! Your outrage would be better directed at real injustices.Posted by Gerry Regan at January 5, 2004 11:38 PM
I think someone with the charachter of Master Sgt. Lisa Girman as she has showed herself should be placed in a turkish prison for men. They would love to tame such a one.Posted by Pete at January 6, 2004 01:04 AM
All I can say is that NCO'S are supposed to set the example. Poor judgement and mistakes are made from time to time. We are only human! Being a active duty military retiree I have been in many situations both in peace time and yes in conflicts. That require you to keep your head thinking straight. As two members where Senior NCO'S they are constantly being scrutinized by their sub-ordinates. This behavior does not bring credit to themselves, their country or military service. They will have to pay for their actions and lack of judgement. However one item has me a little concerned. MSGT Lisa Girman is a state trooper is apalling. What is to stop her from pulling someone over and getting out of line with a U.S. Citizen. If she is allowed to continue to be a state trooper she needs a full psychiatric evaluation before resuming her duties. Possibly, her past arrests could be tainted or questioned. I personnally would not get warm fuzzy feelings if she pulled me over.Posted by Walter Kurycz Jr. at January 6, 2004 03:01 AM
to the above comment from Mr. Kurycz Jr., sir, being in conflicts yourself and ex-military, a question. Have you ever had to take a life, or have you ever fired your weapon in the direction of your enemy. Have you ever been fired at. Last question, were you there present when these "crimes" were committed? If you were not, how can you pass judgement? If they are guilty,I can not see the amry dismissing any of the charges. Although, the army dropped all the charges. I have been in the military and have been in law enforcement for 11 years. If you are guilty you are convicted. They have not. Before passing judgement we should have, all the facts. Do not judge someone until you have walked a day in there "combat, while at war boots".
In response to Bo. Yes I have been in combat and have taken lives. If only you knew. I can not go into detail. In response to your crimes question. You are right I was not there and it sounds like you were not either. Even if you where their the Army had enough grounds to proceed with NJP proceedings and possible court martial. The accused elected to take NJP and not go thru with a court martial. I am not judging them the Army did. All I said is that the two Senior NCO's definitely new better. Poor judgement and actions took place and now the penalty has to be paid. A military convening authority has administered the legal action correctly affored it by the MCM. The Geneva Convention Accords was signed by the United States and it offers certain protection given prisoners and certain standards that a conquering force must adhere to. Somehow this was not adhered to. Just like we the citizen's of the United States are protected by the Bill of Rights and the Constitution. There are certain procedures a law enforcement offical must follow. If procedures are not followed correctly it jepardizes the case and the accused regardless of how severe the crime was can walk away free. Bo something happened over there in the way the prisoners were treated. Other Army personnell eye witnessed these actions. Are they lying or is the Army making these accused scape goats.Posted by Walter Kurycz Jr. at January 6, 2004 06:14 PM
I'm still not sure how I feel about this case. I wonder if these troops agreed to a gag order or will be speaking out about conditions on the ground.
Meanwhile, here's a link to a similar story that's just now getting into the news:
The 4 MPs were railroaded by a rear echelon pogue-
colonel, who no doubt is a suck-up and brown noser of the worst sort. Said dipsh1t colonel wanted to make an impression on his superiors since he cannot satisfy his wife in bed, he has to make a swagger stick show of force by abusing those troops placed under his dubious command.
I hope the four MP's get their justice, and that the useless colonel gets his comeuppance in the not too distant future.
I applaud the actions of the 4, as they and the others controlling that mob were at an 80 to ONE
disadvantage. I am sure that MSgt Girman acted with the utmost of professionalism when she assessed the situation, and took measure appropriate to the situation. To bad the colonel set above her (who is probably a McDonalds manager
in real life) had gotten too many tickets in his lifetime, and thought the best way to take it out on someone was to bust a real group of patriotic
I served for several years in the 320th MP unit with Lisa Girman. Pete, your over the top comment is WAY out line. Lisa Girman is a top notch soldier and leader. I'd follow her into any war, anytime.
Also - The statements made by the persons from another (non-MP) unit that started this were "they handled the EPW's roughly". The rest was added on by a ticked off officer because Girman filed a complaint of public intoxication of this officer. Also, she brought attention to the fact that an officer (I'm not sure if it's the same one) "misplaced" their weapon!
Here's some interesting factoids I've found:
(Girman) faulted superiors for suggesting they could provide more food and speedier hearings to prisoners, raising false hopes among the Iraqis that prompted two riots the week before Easter.
(Girman) confronted superiors about their decision to hire as an assistant a prisoner nicknamed "Sammy the Kickboxer."...so named because he repeatedly had lashed out at MPs.
During one riot...a commanding officer retreated, stranding soldiers in the prisoners' living area....(Girman) led a rescue, raising her standing among troops who had begun to lose faith in the camp's leadership.
Linda Edmondson of South Abington, Lackawanna County, said her daughter, Shawna, 24, in civilian life a public safety officer at the University of Scranton, also had hinted at leadership problems. She said her daughter mentioned a "Palm Sunday Riot" in which a major "ran and hid behind a water tank and left the kids there."
Thomas confirmed that one prisoner was fatally shot and another wounded during an uprising and that one MP was threatened with a tent pin, but said he didn't have other details.
Edmondson and Jim Canjar of Madison, Lackawanna County, praised Lisa Girman. "All the soldiers love her," said Canjar, noting his son, a 21-year-old criminal justice student at Penn State, had mentioned a major's grudge against Girman.
In e-mails to his mother and other family members and friends, McKenzie complained about a colonel who lost his gun, a major intoxicated in front of her troops and a major's inadvertent release of a prisoner on the most-wanted list.
David Girman said the charges against his sister and others have dealt another blow to morale, leaving MPs afraid to defend themselves or confront prisoners. He said MPs did not attempt to stop four prisoners who escaped from the compound one day.
Thomas confirmed a prisoner was released by mistake.
Sound fishy enough to not bad mouth these soldiers?
It's interesting that most of you are making negative comments based on knowing half the story. I assure you, that if you knew the full story, you would find it more difficult to judge these individuals. If you have military experience, than you should know that the military has a way of hiding the things it doesn't want known. Ask yourself these 2 questions that might enlighten you a bit: 1) Are there any POW's that were offered U.S. citizenship by a certain individual who initiated this investigation? and 2) Why would the soldiers "give up" on trying to fight these charges after fighting them for so long...Were deals made to have a soldier turn on the others in order to avoid other charges based on his/her infidelity outside of his/her marriage?Posted by Kat at January 21, 2004 06:43 PM
Interesting to see the majority of posters here defending the soldiers actions. There were more than one witness' to the soldiers actions, so its reasonably safe to assume that this isn't just a case of false allegations by some pissed off major. And holding someone down, holding their legs open for others to kick is torture, not self defense. You may remember torture - its what saddam and his thugs did to the iraqi people, oh, and wasn't that why we had to go in there and get him in the first place? Which is why its so goddamned important that when _we_ start doing it, the perpetrators are punished and justice is seen to be done. These three should have been subjected to criminal proceedings.
There's a post further up here that says 'they deserved it because they were guilty'. Rubbish. Iraqis are being detained all the time under suspicion, and later freed because they are innocent. Incidentally, in the case of the British troops that beat 9 iraqis, one of them to death, they were later all shown to be totally innocent. Not much good for the dead one eh?
I haven't been following this story. My initial reaction is to support the MPs, not because I was there but simply that I have first-hand experience with false accusations of brutality toward arestees, being a retired LEO.I would be especially suspicious of such charges coming after those enlisted troops charging O-4 and O5 grade officers of any kind of misconduct, much as I'd be suspicious of charges brought against a patrol officer just after that patrol officer arrested a Mayor's brother-in-law for DWI.
I won't say MP or LEO misconduct ever happens, we all know it does. I say being suspicious of this case is the smart way to bet.
I would not read much into these folks taking the NJP and out, either. Just the very fact of having a charge against one, in this day of zero defect, is enough to end a career. They had nothing to gain by rolling the dice in a court martial and everything to lose. In a court martial they wouldn't have Commander Rabb from JAG on CBS defending them, they'd have a First John from Brigade Headquarters unless, out of their own pockets, they could pay civilian counsel. Being a defendent in a military proceeding is a damned chancy thing. The members of the court are career military. The defense counsel is only rarely a lawyer, mostly it's an officer assigned and subordinate to that convening authority. Just how much would I bet on that defense counsel's loyalties being my well being? How much would I bet on the objectivity of the members of the court that just might be subordinate to an officer with whom I'd crossed swords? How much am I willing to risk for what is, in reality, a part time job, interfering with my regular career?
Had the senior NCO not ruffled the feathers of a Major and a short Colonel prior to the charges they'd be a lot more believable. It's also damned hard for me to believe that a Master Sgt and career State Trooper would be dumb enough to abuse prisoners in front of witnesses. When this sort of thing happens it happens out of sight.
Will someone please call my wife and have her wake me up...I'm having a Monty Python nightmare about "mean ole" Sgt Lisa roughing up some Iraqi creampuffs.
I mean no disrespect to Sgt Girman, but given her grace in dealing with this situation, I strongly suspect that she has been far more brutal to (the egos of) young men back home seeking her affections than to the Iraqi men over whom she was given charge.
Is this how the land of my birth and my life thanks the people who stand the late watch and die in un-named places that we may sleep in peace? Truth really is the first casualty of every war, isn't it?Posted by Randm Pat at March 2, 2004 09:11 PM
Lets just say that those 4 soliders didnt even come close to getting what they deserved. The reason they coped? because they were guilty! Ask your self this question? Why would this senior NCO walk away from a almost 20 year carrer if she knew in her heart she was just? Let her stand on her principals and be a example to her soliders and believe in the system she represents in her civilian and military life. This stand up State trooper that recieved a D.U.I the night before she left for Kuwait had been suspeted in other abuse incidents prior to this. Know the facts!!Posted by been there at March 23, 2004 01:54 AM
Lisa Girman got a D.U.I. the night before her unit deployed? What a disgrace. What a disgrace.
Chant it with me, everyone...Posted by Truth Teller at April 17, 2004 11:24 PM
I just wanted to say I don't see the real deal here. I mean the television shows different things as being comical, like the kicking in the groin. As a fact, there are some men that actually like it and goes to dominatrix to get stuff like that done. It's a shame that society can make comics out of it, but states it's a real serious issue, especially if there is one that might like it. No disrespect because I am not quoting anyone or even myself.Posted by B at April 21, 2004 10:03 PM
SO BIG DEAL SHE GOT A D.U.I. THAT IS BECAUSE WE GAVE HER A PARTY BEFORE SHE WENT TO FIGHT FOR YOUR FREEDOM BECAUSE JUST MAYBE I WOULD NEVER SEE HER AGAIN! SO I GUESS YOU WERE JUST A PERFECT PERSON THAT YOU DID KNOW WRONG; YA RIGHT!SHE WOULD GIVE HER LAST BREATH TO SAVE SOMEONE SO DONT TALK ABOUT SOMEONE IF YOU REALLY DONT KNOW THEM.IT IS PEOPLE LIKE YOU THAT MAKE OUR WORLD JUDGE PEOPLE ON HEAR SAY INSTEAD OF REALITY. SO WHY DONT YOU BE HAPPY THAT SHE FOUGHT FOR YOUR FREEDOM. BESIDES WHY ARENT YOU THERE ! REMEMBER THEYARE KILLING ARE MEN AND WOMEN EVERYDAY!
So, these people can get angry and kick asses. WELLL, what if we make them Police Officers down in the inner city -- can they do the SAME? Get mad and kick asses.
I was in ROTC. You FOLLOW orders. Not your own emotions. All of these people are a DISGRACE to the military.
They are to win the "hearts and minds" of the Iraquis, not beat the hell out of them.
This rag of a paper should be ashamed as well!
The Military is about serving and following orders -- not about getting pissed and kicking a**! Shame on these losers!Posted by Nancy J at May 1, 2004 02:04 AM
Name: GIRMAN, DAVID J
Address: 12 xx removing street name for his privacy xx
PITTSTON, PA 18640
Date of Birth: 6/8/1967
Registration Number: 0000647800
Party Affiliation: DEMOCRATIC
Congressional District: 11
State Senate District: 14
State House District: 118
Precinct: PITTSTON CITY 01
GENERAL ELECTION 2000: VOTED
PRIMARY ELECTION 1999: VOTED
GENERAL ELECTION 1998: VOTED
GENERAL ELECTION 1997: VOTED
I have another point no one has brought up. A master sergeant is not "directly below" a colonel. A colonel is well above a master sergeant...are you kidding me?!? Between a sergeant and a colonel you have lieutenants, captains, and majors. Plus, colonels have to have a college degree and it's very hard to get promoted to colonel in the reserves. For someone who didn't go to college and drinks too much (I'm insulted because my best friend was seriously injured by a drunk driver in college) I think Lisa should shut up. She looks ignorant and the rest of America looks with horror at this ugly bitter woman making us GI's (I'm a 2LT in the USMC) look bad on TV. Horrible. Gross.
Please, please Lisa shut up.Posted by 2LT Ericson, USMC at May 6, 2004 03:59 AM
I think one of the previous posters hit the nail on the head. Girman and Edmondson could start a whole new high paying career as dominatrixes. A lot of guys would pay top dollar to get the kind of "treatment" they dish out! They'd even pay extra if they wore their fatigues and combat boots.....Posted by RAJ at May 6, 2004 08:35 PM
None of this blather is going to make those photographs or the testimony of witnesses go away. The soldiers who committed these atrocities are responsible for their own actions.
It may be that extenuating circumstances exist regarding these incidents and perhaps even the command and control issues surrounding them. Those circumstances may well reduce the degree of culpability attending the defendants.
That said, it will not suffice to prosecute only these MPs. Their chain of command bears a far greater degree of responsiblity for these outrages than do the individual soldiers.
That chain of command extends all the way to the White House. The Commander in Chief gave the order to invade Iraq in the first place.
He did so in the naive belief that the occupation would be a simple matter. Consequently, there was never any detailed exit strategy. Such strategy as did exist has been proven woefully inadequate.
That is the real reason these atrocities occurred. We entered this war based on faulty intelligence (some might say manufactured intelligence) regarding both the rationale for the war and the likely consequences for it.
George W. Bush is ultimately responsible for this mess. He must be held to account for it.Posted by Robert E. Frank, Jr., SSG, Retired Reserve, Army at May 9, 2004 11:35 PM
You're right Mr. Frank. We should stop holding people responsible for what they do at 2-4 am, with no one else around, when there are PICTURES and VIDEOS that prove no one else was around, while a small group decided to do disgusting things. George W. Bush is definitely responsible for MP's and MI's deciding to break rules. THrow him out! and best yet, replace him with the MP's in this pictures and videos! They seem like good people!!!Posted by I dont care what your rank is at May 12, 2004 01:53 AM
I was just reading the post from LELE and she made several intersting comments about and assumed alot. FIrst let me say that even though I am way behind the dates on this post I am doing it in a effort to set the record straight. Second it is all well and good that you threw Msgt Girman a party the night before she left my Family did aswell. Like a responsible solider I chose not to drive. Everyone has a choice and she made hers, this if anything speaks of her charcter.... This is a State trooper were talking about. Third let me say this I was there and I was in Iraq for the second time (desert storm and Iraqi freedom) along with several other deployments. How do I know? I was a solider stationed at Camp Bucca I have first hand knowledge. My up armor hummer had 23 miles on it when I got to iraq the day the war started and had 23,000 when I left. Please dont confuse good soliders with bad ones. I hope this puts this issue to bed. Just to recap the all plead guilty right? like the name says Been therePosted by Max decoy at August 7, 2004 11:05 PM
I was just reading the post from LELE and she made several intersting comments about and assumed alot. FIrst let me say that even though I am way behind the dates on this post I am doing it in a effort to set the record straight. Second it is all well and good that you threw Msgt Girman a party the night before she left my Family did aswell. Like a responsible solider I chose not to drive. Everyone has a choice and she made hers, this if anything speaks of her charcter.... This is a State trooper were talking about. Third let me say this I was there and I was in Iraq for the second time (desert storm and Iraqi freedom) along with several other deployments. How do I know? I was a solider stationed at Camp Bucca I have first hand knowledge. My up armor hummer had 23 miles on it when I got to iraq the day the war started and had 23,000 when I left. Please dont confuse good soliders with bad ones. I hope this puts this issue to bed. Just to recap the all plead guilty right? like the name says Been therePosted by Been there at August 7, 2004 11:06 PM
I was there in Bucca with those 4. They were a rare few whom I respect from within the 320th. They were a great group of troops that need to be thanked for thier efforts towards the mission in Iraq....Posted by lawman64 at February 1, 2005 12:19 PM
Your country is despicable.
The new Nazism.
A web of lies almost as thick ( thick means stupid btw!) as you thieving , plundering ,murdering war criminals.
Europe despises you.
Even large sections of America see the sham of a "democracy" that you are.
The lot of you should be dragged off to the Hague for war crimes.
Still , support that cancer Buxh , and ultimately you'll end up with exactly what you deserve- a leper state , isolated and despised by the whole world.
Oh and you might even get some terrorism -duhhh!
PS I live in England.Apparently we have a "special
relationship " with you.
Well , you wish!
PPS are you the clowns that think a passport of a hijacker can land uncharred in the rubble of the WTC and yet the black boxes "never got found"
Hmmm......Posted by English patriots at December 12, 2005 02:40 PM
Hi, English Patriots!
Interesting that you use AOL in Virginia for your web service. Might I assume you're just "on holiday" in the US? Do enjoy!