The reader will kindly forgive any tendency to rough language or behavior on the part of the site owner...
TMGlogo2006-2007phs-copy.jpg
"Good people sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
TMGbloglabel1 copy.gif

TMGbloglabel3 copy.gif
TMG MONTHLY ARCHIVES
[-]



TMGbloglabel10 copy.gif

TMGbloglabel2 copy.gif
The Mudville Gazette Feeds

 

Add to Technorati Favorites
Technorati Profile
add.gif
Add to Google
addtomyyahoo4.gif
ngsub1.gif sub_modern5.gif

xml.gif rdf.png atom feed.jpg

digg.jpg

Find the best blogs at Blogs.com.

pl-news.gif

tvc_logo_small.png

Mrsg- Greyhawk's Profile
Mrsg- Greyhawk's Facebook profile
Create Your Badge
TMGbloglabel5 copy.gif
TMGbloglabel6 copy.gif
350.jpg
Greetings! You are reading an article from The Mudville Gazette. To reach the front page, with all the latest news and views, click the logo above or "main" below. Thanks for stopping by!
« Hungry? | Main | Last Words »

September 9, 2009

greyhawk copy sm.png

Let's play war games

By Greyhawk

This is what war is, and a reminder that "embedded" does not mean safe.

And like any story from a war zone - be it a bombing raid, exchange of gunfire, or other violent event, early reports are to be greeted with skepticism, at best. This one raises several questions, all of which have no doubt already been asked by those on the scene, most of which will be answered, many of which will be rightfully classified, some of which will be obvious, and few (if any) of which will be resolved to the satisfaction of all.

This we know: four Marines died. Perhaps that fact renders it easy for outsiders to accept this quote as fact, too:

U.S. commanders, citing new rules to avoid civilian casualties, rejected repeated calls to unleash artillery rounds at attackers dug into the slopes and tree lines -- despite being told repeatedly that they weren't near the village.

Outrageous! At least if we pretend for a moment that two things actually preventing anyone from making a reasonable comment about this are true:

1. We know everything about the Rules of Engagement - which are actually both variable (to a degree) and classified (beyond vague publicly released terms). In this case we must further assume that the targets were "legitimate" within those ROE, as implied by the quote above.

and

2. Everything else in the above quote is accurate.

Number two is more likely, but neither of those requirements are satisfied here. For a moment, however, we will pretend they are.

If so, then the above is a description of the mis-application of the Rules of Engagement, something that in spite of efforts to the contrary is as inevitable (and regrettable and unfortunate and unacceptable) as the use of force that (after the heat of battle) is determined to exceed those limits. In neither case are the Rules of Engagement therefore "bad". There is no case to be made to the contrary here.

I'd rather not go deeper into that discussion, as at this point (I repeat) a larger truth overwhelms the small details - we distant observers don't know if the case is as described and we don't know the ROE. In short: we don't know enough. But I suppose I could restate it this way: if you absolutely insist on jumping to a conclusion based only on the insufficient data points available, at least jump to the conclusion supported by those insufficient data points, not one they refute.

Better still, wait for additional details. Even better: remember that the guys on the ground, who will ultimately resolve the situation (see second paragraph in this discussion) are actually there, and might even be more interested in their own well being than you are.

More: War Games (II)


Posted by Greyhawk / September 9, 2009 10:47 AM | Permalink

4 TrackBacks

War Games (II) from Mudville Gazette on September 15, 2009 1:08 PM

The reporter who broke the story of how our rules of engagement in Afghanistan endanger the troops has a detailed follow up:The lack of timely air support - it took about 80 minutes by a reporter's watch for helicopters to arrive, despite assurances th... Read More

"...only those who will admit defeat can be defeated. . . . Or, conversely, when the populace admits defeat, the forces in the field might just as well surrender or withdraw."Ancient history, that. Hardly news by any definition. ***** General Dave Petr... Read More

The Rules from Mudville Gazette on September 21, 2009 8:50 AM

A great discussion on changing the rules in Afghanistan at Small Wars Journal. ("Great" insofar as those contributing know what they're talking about.) My contribution is a question. To understand it you'd have to understand this: From the original pos... Read More

"Report: Army denied aid to team under fire" reads the headline in the Marine Corps Times.Nearly two hours after the initial call for help, helicopter air support arrived -- but not before the unit took heavy casualties. The delay occurred because Army... Read More

5 Comments

If true, this is the mindset that facilitated the bombing of the Marine barracks in Beruit. Is this a purpose driven agenda to provide a reason for retreat- just as we did the first time? Shameful if true.

This report wasn't written second-hand. The reporter was actually there. The disturbing part of the article is that the entire set-up seems to have been orchestrated from within the Afghan Army, which recommended the mission. I wonder how you shape the ROE to deal with the fact that you're dealing with an unreliable, even treacherous ally, who you're there expressly to support and whose success will presumably determine your own.

I also wonder if the guys on the ground truly will be able to assess what happened and make changes to avoid a similar situation in the future. Aren't the people making the rules sitting back in Washington? And they have a different focus it seems, changing the definition of collateral damage.

All that said, you're right. There's a whole lot I don't know. Which of course doesn't stop me from stating an opinion!

You are correct Bennett. There are several questions raised, several likely lessons learned. Given that the event happened, the best outcome is that those are reviewed and passed on (in theater, not in public forums).

As for public forums, they are the perfect place for us to give our opinions, and challenge one another and think and respond. I hope my post didn't read like a long "shut up"! :)

(And are you Jim Bennett, or are there two Bennetts?)

There are two Bennetts. I am not Jim Bennett.

And no, I didn't think you were discouraging opinions, just cautioning people not to draw broader conclusions than the known facts will support. This admonition, although wise, will probably fall on deaf ears.

It's easy to read this particular story and wonder about the guy who's running that sh*t show over there. Because he sure is screwing it up if this is what the new kindler, gentler war is going to look like.

The Thunder Run has linked to this post in the blog post From the Front: 09/10/2009 News and Personal dispatches from the front and the home front.

350.jpg
Mrs G copy.png

November 26, 2010


America@war
[Greyhawk]
I think anyone who's ever pondered the "comment" option - once only available on blogs and bulletin boards, now ubiquitous on almost any web site - will appreciate this:
The so-called faculty of writing is not so much a faculty of writing as it is a faculty of thinking. When a man says, "I have an idea but I can't express it"; that man hasn't an idea but merely a vague feeling. If a man has a feeling of that kind, and will sit down for a half an hour and persistently try to put into writing what he feels, the probabilities are at least 90 percent that he will either be able to record it, or else realize that he has no idea at all. In either case, he will do himself a benefit.

That's wisdom from the past, captured for posterity at the US Naval Institute, shared via the web on the institute's 137th anniversary.

From their about page:

The Naval Institute shall remain

INDEPENDENT - A non-profit member association, with no government support, that does not lobby for special interests;

NON-PARTISAN - An independent, professional military association with a mission, goals and objectives that transcend political affiliations; and shall encourage

IDEAS - Through its respected journals Proceedings and Naval History, its conferences, its books and its online content, in support of those who serve.

"The Naval Institute has three core activities," among them, History and Preservation:

The Naval Institute also has recently introduced Americans at War, a living history of Americans at war in their own words and from their own experiences. These 90-second vignettes convey powerful stories of inspiration, pride, and patriotism.

Take a look at the collection, and you'll see it's not limited to accounts from those who served on ships at sea, members of the other branches are well-represented.

I'm fortunate to have met USNI's Mary Ripley, she's responsible for the institute's oral history program (and she's the daughter of the late John Ripley, whose story is told here). She also deserves much credit for their blog. ("We're not the Navy nor any government agency. Blog and comment freely.") We met at a milblog conference - Mary knew (and I would come to realize) that milbloggers are the 21st-century version of exactly what the US Naval Institute is all about. Once that light bulb came on in my head, I mentioned a vague idea for a project to her - milblogs as the 21st century oral history that they are.

"Put that in writing," she said (of course - see first paragraph above!) - and here's part of the result.

Shortly after the first tent was pitched by the American military in Iraq a wire was connected to a computer therein, and the internet was available to a generation of Americans at war - many of whom had grown up online. From that point on, at any given moment, somewhere in Iraq a Soldier, Sailor, Airman or Marine was at a keyboard sharing the events of his or her day with the folks back home. While most would simply fire off an email, others took advantage of the (then) relatively new online blogging platforms to post their thoughts and experiences for the entire world to see. The milblog was born - and from that moment to this stories detailing everything from the most mundane aspects of camp life to intense combat action (often described within hours of the event) have been available on the web...

And et cetera - but since you're reading this on a milblog, you probably knew that. And you know that milblogs aren't just blogs written by troops at war, that many friends, family members, and supporters likewise documented their story of America at war online in near-real time, as those stories developed.

The diversity in membership of that group is broad, the one thing we all have in common is the impulse to make sense of the seemingly senseless, and communicate the tale - for each of us that impulse was strong enough to overcome whatever barriers prevent the vast majority of people from doing the same. Everyone at some point has some vague idea they believe should be shared - we were the people who, from some combination of internal and external urging, found and spent those many half hours persistently trying to write it down.

*****

But where will all that be in another 137 years? Or five or ten, for that matter. That's something I've asked myself since at least 2004 - when I wrote this:

Closing Blogs is nothing new. So many site's owners just give up on their own. They come and go, you know, these MilBloggers do. Like any other sort of blogger. Many post in the lonely down hours far from home, spill their guts for the world, then abandon their spots when the tour of duty is up. They have lives again somewhere in the world, and no need to share the details. So it goes.

Many are truly gone - no site left at all. "The page cannot be found." Other blogs remain, like abandoned defensive positions in shifting desert sands.

Membership in the ghost battalion has grown in the years since, and an ever growing majority of those abandoned-but-still-standing sites are vanishing. Have you checked out Lt Smash's site lately? How about Sgt Hook's? If you're a long-time milblog reader you know the first widely-read milblog from Operation Iraq Freedom and the first widely-read milblog from Afghanistan are both gone from the web. If you're a relative newcomer to this world you may never even have heard of them - or the dozens upon dozens of others who carried forth the standard they set down.

If you have a vague notion that something should be done about that, (a notion I've heard expressed more than once...) then you and I and the good folks at the US Naval Institute are in agreement. Preserving the history documented by the milbloggers is just one of the goals of the milblog project, the once-vague idea that we're now making real.

And it's a big idea, if I say so myself - too big to explain in one simple blog post, so stand by for more. Likewise, it's too big a task to be accomplished by just one person. So if you're a milblogger (and exactly what is a milblogger? is a topic for much further discussion on its own) I'm asking for your help. All I'll really need is just a little bit (maybe just one or two of those half hours...) of your time, and your willingness to tell the tale.

We've already made history, it's time to save it.

(More to follow...)




Posted 4:02 PM | Permalink | Comments (0) |

TMGbloglabel7copy.gif
The Mudville Gazette is the on-line voice of an American warrior and his wife who stands by him. They prefer to see peaceful change render force of arms unnecessary. Until that day they stand fast with those who struggle for freedom, strike for reason, and pray for a better tomorrow.
TMGrecentcomments.gif
  • David M: The Thunder Run has linked to this post in the read more
  • Bennett: There are two Bennetts. I am not Jim Bennett. And read more
  • Greyhawk: You are correct Bennett. There are several questions raised, several read more
  • Bennett: This report wasn't written second-hand. The reporter was actually there. read more
  • SpeakEasy: If true, this is the mindset that facilitated the bombing read more

MBC2010.jpg

MILBLOGS NEWS

*****

Latest Posts From MilBlogs

*****

milblogsa1.jpg Prev | List | Random | Next
Join
Powered by RingSurf!
TMGbloglabel2 copy.gif
The Dawn Patrol Feeds

 

Add to Google Reader or Homepage Subscribe in NewsGator Online Add to netvibes Add to Plusmo myaol_cta1.gif

xml.gif rdf.png atom feed.jpg

TMGbloglabel8copy.gif

TMGbloglabel9 copy.gif
Blah Blah Blah
me220.JPG

The Mudville Gazette is written and produced by Greyhawk, who recently retired from 24 years of active duty in the US military, but will maintain this disclaimer: Unless otherwise credited, the opinions expressed are those of the author, and nothing here is to be taken as representing the official position of or endorsement by the United States Department of Defense or any of its subordinate components.

Furthermore, I will occasionally use satire or parody herein. The bottom line: it's my house.

I like having visitors to my house. I hope you are entertained. I fight for your right to free speech, and am thrilled when you exercise said rights here. Comments and e-mails are welcome, but all such communication is to be assumed to be 1)the original work of any who initiate said communication and 2)the property of the Mudville Gazette, with free use granted thereto for publication in electronic or written form. If you do NOT wish to have your message posted, write "CONFIDENTIAL" in the subject line of your email.

Original content copyright © 2003 - 2011 by Greyhawk. Fair, not-for-profit use of said material by others is encouraged, as long as acknowledgement and credit is given, to include the url of the original source post. Other arrangements can be made as needed.

Contact: greyhawk at mudvillegazette dot com

andsm.jpg

*****

Tending Distant
Fires


Far from hearth and home, watching
Cold alone but not alone
On distant shore and only wanting
Safe return and little more

What tales we'll tell
When that time comes
When tales can be told

When things grim
Seem far away
When other fires go cold

Some distant sunset, vision fading
Memories remain
And tired eyes gaze 'pon folded flags
While distant drums beat their refrain

Saluting fallen friends whose names
And youth will never fade
Here's to those on other shores,
for them live well, the price is paid

- Greyhawk,
Baghdad,
December 2004