Was the Cook case a scam?

"Even without going to court, the Army says - essentially - hey, no problem. You were the one who wanted to go in the first place."

If you can show where he put in papers to command requesting his orders be revoked, then you might have a point.

If he did not, the DOD couldn't very well respond to papers _that were not filed_, could it?

If the latter is the case, all you have done is libel and demonize one very patriotic soldier and you should be ashamed of yourself for attacking him without knowing the facts.

Thanks for the link to my post.

There's more coming, though.

Orly Taitz has filed another motion adding two additional retired members of the military to Cook's case. The amendment doesn't comply with the Rules of Court, but this is a woman who ignores procedure on a regular basis. Tomorrow's hearing is still on.

"Are you saying he didn't file suit to get out of an Afghan assignment?"

First off, that wasn't what the suit was about. It has to do with Obama's qualification to issue such orders.

Second, the courts do not process assignments and deployment for military personnel, the military does that. It takes a lot of paperwork pretty much just to sneeze. If the soldier filed no request for revocation of his deployment through channels, how could command respond to _something that had not been requested_? Understand the point?

I agree the action was suddenly and very oddly taken by command because of the pending case. I think it's likely that someone got very worried about the case going forward.

I'd suggest a quick gander at some comments on this by "Big Country" (who's in the sandbox)at "Confederate Yankee", they're worth reading IMO. His bottom line take:
"All he did was ask essentally was "Prove to me you are legally President under the Constitution." and the reaction following, shows there's more to this than meets the eye."

Obama eligibility case to be heard on merits.

http://www.thesubstratum.com/general-politics/bombshell-deployment-orders-for-soldier-challenging-obama-citizenship-revoked/

You really don't want to start lecturing me on various rules governing military service, life therein, or related topics, do you? Because I thoroughly agree that the civilian courts are certainly not the right institution to deal with them.

Why did he volunteer to go? I have a hard time deconflicting that with prior and subsequent events.

Actually I don't give a damn. Bottom line - someone somewhere got screwed into a short-notice trip to A'stan. Since that someone took an oath I've no doubt they will go and serve with honor, while Cookie Boy wanders the US in search of President Obama's birth certificate.

"First off, that wasn't what the suit was about. It has to do with Obama's qualification to issue such orders."

So you are the commander of SOCCENT...you have some guy who volunteers for duty with you but believes he doesn't have to follow the orders of the De Facto commander in chief. No sane officer would want this person in their unit. That simple. If the guy believes the orders of the De Facto commander in chief don't have to be followed...then his belief must therefore be that he also doesn't have to follow the orders of any of the underlings.

Maybe you missed it...but the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States is the one that swears in a President.

Re: Karen Schell's post, here's a good way to save time. Any time a birther posts something that uses the words "I think...", "I believe...", "In my opinion..." or anything along those lines, just stop reading. Their predictions are based on a combination of half-truths, outright fabrications and wishful thinking, and always turn out to be incorrect.

Karen, here's the deal. While belief and faith are wonderful things when it comes to, for example, God and the innate goodness of humanity, they aren't the sort of thing upon which you want to base your legal proceedings. Your beliefs in this case would require an enormous conspiracy involving bipartisan support at virtually all levels of government, as well as having have its roots literally on the exact day of birth of a mixed-race child on the assumption that he would one day grow up to be President.

Because you have Obama Derangement Syndrome, you are about to throw your support wholeheartedly behind an ex-Soviet lawyer/dentist who is, and please read this part closely, completely incompetent at the practice of law. She is going to get this major decommissioned and probably imprisoned, harming not only himself but, as Greyhawk pointed out, whoever is deployed in his place and possibly the military at large.

There's more.....Orly and Major Cook have been joined by two more former officers:

http://belowthebeltway.com/2009/07/15/orly-taitz-stefan-cook-and-the-birther-parade-head-to-georgia/

"I agree the action was suddenly and very oddly taken by command because of the pending case. I think it's likely that someone got very worried about the case going forward"

Or maybe they knew it was a complete waste of time for the military personnel who would be involved in litigating the case, a waste of taxpayer money, and a totally worthless endeavor which could be avoided quickly and easily by revoking Cook's orders and making the case moot.

Meanwhile, the Army gets to deal with more important things than a crazy lady who got her law degree from a crackerjack box.

"You really don't want to start lecturing me on various rules governing military service, life therein, or related topics, do you?"

I didn't lecture you, I just pointed out the fact deplotment decisions are not made by courts, but by command. If that is incorrect, you're more than welcome to enlighten me otherwise.

"Actually I don't give a damn."

And I would venture that is part of the problem. It's understandable that some military folks will have an immediate kneejerk reaction and demand the guy be hung out to dry. That's a natural and understandable reaction.

As I pointed out, other fine, dedicated servicepeople are looking at this dispassionately and coming to a totally different conclusion.

"Cookie Boy wanders the US in search of President Obama's birth certificate."

Since you don't know him or the case at hand, I'll just note you're obviously as welcome to your feelings as other military personnel are free to have a very opposite view. Opinions are like noses, to clean up a saying.

However I will also note that not all of the most important battles of our time take place on the battlefield.

And from what I've heard, Fort Leavenworth is not a fun place for someone to risk residence. But just as the orders were mysteriously and instantly revoked (by the CO of United States Special Operations Command Central, no less), I expect there won't be much call from the adminstration that any action be taken against Major Cook. If that, along with everything else, doesn't make any reasonable person "go hmmm...", nothing will.

But I'm stressing you should at least realize that other active duty personnel - good, outstanding men & women - are not on the same page as you on this. But this is your blog and it's your dime - I appreciate your time, though we obviously disagree - thank you for your time and your service to our land. Both are appreciated.

Centcom weighs in on the case.

About once a week I think "Dr. Orly Taitz" is an elaborate scam put on by a bunch of college kids trying to get a rise out of as many people as possible.

So last night when I saw the "news" I googled it to confirm, but the only media outlet that was covering it was WorldNetDaily and a bunch of blogs linking to WND.

The lesson is to confirm stories with multiple sources and get the opposing PR statement before assuming that what the slimy lawyer says is correct.

Sooo... Let me make sure I understand this. The Maj. volunteers for duty, then proceeds to perform in a public circus act, and the unit that he is designated for decides that he would be a liability and that they don't want to play with him and his baggage. The only question left is why is this guy in the service? If he had any sense of honor he would resign his commission and pursue his legal case without A. Screwing some poor soul who gets 11th hour orders, B. Engaging in actions that cause all Army personnel to be viewed as frustrated politicians (or worse), or C. using his official rank and status for a political purpose (isn't there something in the UCMJ about that?) I'm just thankful that this is a Major (and an IA to boot) that we're talking about and therefore unlikely to be mission critical.

William sends

Wow - you actually just spent time lecturing me that I don't speak for every military person in America or elsewhere? Well, thanks for clarifying.

And your confusion with facts and feelings continues, as Jax pointed out quite swell. Facts are, Cookie boy will never see duty in a combat zone, while others will risk their lives ensuring he is free to continue that search.

Which brings us to your brilliant observation that "not all of the most important battles of our time take place on the battlefield". Thanks for sharing. Also, the sky is generally blue, grass is normally green - I could go on and on. Your combination of facts obvious to anyone and your feelings (admittedly only hinted at - you lack the courage to actually say something). But let's turn to specifics.

So are you like so many I've encountered here over the past several years, convinced that the President of the United States is a greater threat to you than the folks who flew planes into the World Trade Center? That getting rid of him takes precedence over the wars in which we're currently engaged? Please clarify if you wish, but I'll assure you that if so I do indeed speak for the VAST majority of military people in saying while we disagree completely we'll fight for your right to hold that belief, though I urge you not to share it with any just back from actual combat zones.

And thanks, Karen. I just read "Big Country"'s (who doesn't claim to be AD military, btw - maybe he is, but read more carefully) comment.

Apparently this case is causing unspecified "MASSIVE ripples" in Iraq. (Jumbo Shrimp, anyone?) The appeal to you of a comment like that is obvious, but I asked for clarification over there.

"Wow - you actually just spent time lecturing me that I don't speak for every military person"

You shouldn't be so unnerved and have a constant need to insist that when someone points out the simple fact that upstanding military folks disagree on a matter, that you are being "lectured". If you don't care to check out their viewpoints, then it's certainly your right to avoid viewpoints of any of your fellow soldiers with whom you may disagree.

"And your confusion with facts and feelings continues"
vs.
"your feelings (admittedly only hinted at"

You're contradicting yourself there. Worse, you, nor anyone else you may feel a desperate need for "backup" from, have been able to point out any such instances. I've given mutually verifable facts, been respectful and when I offered an opinion or speculation I set it off as my view, my take. Contrary to that, you've offered your opinion as irrefutable fact. Now _that's "feelings" at work. In fact, while you have been unable so far to cite particulars of this legal case, I've had no such issue. (That's not a putdown, there's no need to complain about "being lectured".)

"Cookie boy will never see duty in a combat zone"

Again, now _there's_ a feeling, not a fact - unless you alone are privy to some top secret info re:deployments. If you have such evidence, I'll be the first to salute it when you run it up the flagpole.

Also, you're totally avoiding _why_ he will not be deployed at present, even though he sought such deployment. It wasn't his decision, but rather top brass did a very quick, unexplained 180 turnabout only _after_ it was determined Cook's case would be heard. You're welcome to speculate, but the military is not known for running away from making an example of slam-dunk cases of violations. "Let's forgive and forget" and "Can't we all just get along?" isn't it's norm, except in this case - which everyone has to admit is unique as it brings in Constitutional questions involving a President who has been less than forthcoming on any number of items pertaining to his past. Otherwise this would not be news.

"Which brings us to your brilliant observation that "not all of the most important battles of our time take place on the battlefield". Thanks for sharing. Also, the sky is generally blue, grass is normally green - I could go on and on. Your combination of facts obvious to anyone and your feelings (admittedly only hinted at - you lack the courage to actually say something)."

(Note again your unclear "feelings" projection meme there, it does seems a bit obsessive as does the worry about being "lectured".)

"you like so many I've encountered here over the past several years, convinced that the President of the United States is a greater threat to you than the folks who flew planes into the World Trade Center? That getting rid of him takes precedence over the wars in which we're currently engaged?"

I sincerely hope you are better prepared for real life battles where you cannot invent strawmen to engage in mortal battle with; because "Oh, I know what you think" is not just a very sorry copout, it's also not a substitute for intelligent rationale. Just so much more projection. And there is a saying about "assuming" as you just did there and on this entire matter re: Major Cook.

As I said, I respect your right to avoid all contrary well-reasoned opiniona, even those of your fellow warriors. I'm just saying I don't think it's the best way to go. But people's mileage will vary, it's a "cie la vie" thing. Good luck.

The guy's just a publicity hound, lapping it up and feeling all warm because other loonies tell him what he wants to hear...crying on the left turns into crying on the right, all tears from the same clowns.

Karen - have you ever been to this site before? You're acting like Greyhawk just put it up yesterday in his back room with no credibility or knowledge. Read your own posts with a more objective eye - you are lecturing.

On the flipside - "congratulations" Mudville, on being linked to from the Daily Kos. Very proud moment, I'm sure! Haha...

Karen,
As far as I can tell, Maj Cook didn't violate anything he could be punished for. He was a volunteer, under no compunction (other than any personal consideration of honor or duty as a guy who had volunteered) to go. His behavior led a commander to determine he didn't want his services, as said commander explained, rendering your "inexplicable" claim an obvious false assertion. (You should cease and desist from hinting that commander is a liar, but you won't.) The only remaining "mystery" is are you really as incapable of comprehending this as you claim you are. I suspect the answer might be yes.

Were I that commander I would have made the same decision. The odds of any future commander ever wanting this guy's services are equally slim, even more remote in a combat zone. Some day he may actually be ordered to report for such duty, but I suspect when that day comes he won't go. That said, any time someone discusses a likely course of future events it is obviously not a presentation of hard fact - no statement to that effect is required, and insisting that someone else has posited otherwise is (like arguing they somehow believe they speak for a 100% of the membership of a large group they've made no claim to represent) the definition of a strawman argument. Oddly enough, I've rarely seen anyone accuse someone of that who wasn't actually doing it themselves.

Finally, there are actually multiple disclaimers posted on this site assuring all who may visit that I speak only for myself. To you this might appear to be mysterious or inexplicable, requiring you to imply (without saying) that I don't actually understand what I've written and that there are more than a handful of military people out there who would like to see President Obama removed. In fact, I know there are. For example, I wrote about actual white supremacist Nazis in uniform just last week. I am absolutely convinced I don't speak for them, wouldn't agree with them on any substantive issues, and that they would support our Cookie Boy's actions. (This doesn't equate to "you are a Nazi" - I understand now you need extra explanation of what people are saying).

You are, however, a blithering idiot - something that is obvious to everyone but you. A final forecast: within a few months you will be parading in front of Walter Reed with a sign saying "maimed for a lie".

"got her degree in a crackerjack box" - lol hilarious.

Karen- a birther (freeper also most likey) has about as much credibility and intelligence as those who say 911 was an inside job. Better get used to Obama because he's going to be around for another 7.5 years.

7.5 years - the irony is that he'll owe many thanks to those who continue this birth certificate garbage for that second term.

Here's an idea: when entering into a war of ideas, bring actual ideas.

For clarity, my "idea" remark is not intended for any specific person here.

Just some honest hypothetical questions from a curious civilian who believes our military people are the greatest people on earth and they would do anything for the defense of this country:

If Hugo Chavez was elected to the presidency, would the military have to obey his orders? How would that jive with their oath to the Constitution and to defend America from enemies both foreign and domestic? What would you military folks here do if Hugo Chavez was elected and sworn in as president?

And one other thing. I wish I could say the American voters would never put you guys in that position. After this past election and the way the voters shafted our warriors, all bets are off. I hate what the 52% did to those who have already given so much.

Karen, I know you think your polite demeanor comes off as something more than passive-aggression, that it makes you look like the sane one while those around you rant and rave and call you an idiot. In reality, they do this because they still think of you as a rational person whose mind can be changed by arguments and facts, (those are actual, verifiable facts, mind you, not "the facts of this case" according to Orly Taitz, which are innuendo and nonsense) rather than what you are, which is a conspiracy theorist.

A conspiracy theorist's mind cannot be changed by evidence against their claim. Obama could provide a long-form birth certificate tomorrow with a picture of the doctor delivering him giving a thumbs up and waving the American flag, and you would immediately begin asking why it took him so long to produce this evidence and calling it a forgery.

What Obama has provided, and what has been verified by the State of Hawaii, is a perfectly legal proof of birth. He could get, and has gotten, a driver's license and passport with this document. The multiple courts that heard suits like these, both before and after the election, did not throw these suits out because of some wide-ranging conspiracy. They threw them out because they were entirely without merit and brought before the court by frauds and lunatics.

You seem to be under two substantial misapprehensions. First, you seem to think that the law is like politics, where if enough people agree with you, you get to win. The law is not like that. The law is intentionally structured to protect the individual from the "tyranny of the majority," which is a very good thing when a bunch of your townfolk get together and decide that hanging you is a good idea.

Second, you seem to feel that the law is like arguing on the Internet, where you argue not for reason but for length and irritation. You do not win a lawsuit when the judge gets annoyed and puts you on his "ignore" list.

Please, I invite you to adopt your humblest tone and pick apart the semantics of what I've said here. Tomorrow, Orly Taitz is going to get humiliated in open court and this major will never serve another day in uniform at best and go to Leavenworth at worst. You may feel free to say that this is simply a "feeling" of mine, but let's check back tomorrow and see if I'm right.

"If Hugo Chavez was elected to the presidency, would the military have to obey his orders? "

Would you notice or care if this supposed "Hugo" were a white guy?

Jax, why does the seal on Factcheck photo #5 not bend when the paper it's on folds? The circle on the top fold is distorted as it should be, so why isn't the "seal"?

Why is the line "Barack Hussein Obama" right under the bottom fold on photo #5 missing from photo #1? Other lines of print show up clearly with the same scan, angle, and focus, so why doesn't that line?

Jon, that question is just plain stupid. I would care because Hugo Chavez is not eligible to be our president; our Constitution recognizes that someone with allegiance to a nation other than the US should not be commanding our military.

Here are the links for the Factcheck photos.

Photo #5: http://www.factcheck.org/UploadedFiles/birth_certificate_5.jpg

Photo #1:
http://www.factcheck.org/UploadedFiles/birth_certificate_5.jpg

Obama has taken down his fightthesmears COLB, but it had only one fold and no seal showing from the front, with edge detection applied. How could that be the same COLB as these Factcheck photos - especially considering that photo #1 claims to show a raised surface on the front of the page? How would a surface raised like that not show up with edge detection?

If anybody wants I could probably find a screen shot of the fightthesmears COLB. Let me know.

Jon, a communist from Nicaragua was on the NJ ballot for president. When Leo Donofrio sued the state for not validating eligibility the SCOTUS yawned.

If Obama's COLB was issued by the State of Hawaii the seal would have bent when the page it was on bent, and the side view of it would have had the same lines of print as the front view of it.

The COLB he posted is an obvious forgery and the State of Hawaii concluded in an interview with Politifact that they could not say what the image on Factcheck represented. The State of Hawaii has never said that Obama posted his real COLB.

The only black and white I'm interested in is what I observe on that document. The hard cold facts.

Oops. Photo #1 should have been
http://www.factcheck.org/UploadedFiles/birth_certificate_1.jpg

Nellie, sorry, your hypothetical question runs to the absurd.

Combined with the utter ineptitude of the McCain campaign team, the birther movement - when I first heard of it prior to the elections - made me realize the man was the inevitable next President of the US. I actually have no problem with that - I served under every President since Reagan.

See my 9:23 comment above. Stop looking for flaws in the birth certificate ISSUED TO HIS UNQUESTIONABLY AMERICAN MOTHER (this is not a legal point but it truly pisses me off) and start paying attention to various extremely important issues confronting the United States of America. I KNOW - that's not as easy, it actually requires time and effort, but give it a shot.

Come up with arguments, present them, and listen to the opposition.

While I'm at it - Jon, the "white guy" question is hardly an honest response. I think Nellie's original question was very much political and had nothing to do with race. If you mean to say "you're a racist" in response to anyone questioning Obama's birth certificate you are certainly a worthy opponent for them in the debate.

Nellie, I have absolutely no idea. Possibly it's an artifact from the scanning process. Possibly the image is of low enough resolution that the bend in the seal shows up on the document but not in the scan. Here are some other interesting facts:

1) The State of Hawaii, governed by a Republican, says they issued that document.

2) The State of Hawaii, again governed by a Republican, has confirmed that all information on that document corresponds with their records in every detail.

3) For what you are implying to be true, it would require an enormous conspiracy involving bipartisan support at virtually all levels of government, as well as having have its roots literally on the exact day of birth of a mixed-race child on the assumption that he would one day grow up to be President. In 1961. Three years before the Civil Rights Act that would make segregation illegal. I'm going to keep repeating this until it strikes you that it seems rather far-fetched.

Also, I would ask you where your protests were when the military was sent into major action understaffed. When instructions came directly from the Pentagon not to secure the borders of Iraq, allowing foreign fighters to flood in and support the insurgency. When our fighting men and women were not given the body armor and vehicles they needed to fight a war that was increasingly dominated by guerrilla tactics and IEDs. You may be pro-military, I'm not doubting that, but it seems to me you're far more interested in carrying water for the Republican party. When it comes to supporting our military, party politics cannot and should not come into play.

"Jon, a communist from Nicaragua was on the NJ ballot for president. When Leo Donofrio sued the state for not validating eligibility the SCOTUS yawned."

So a guy in one state? Odds of being elected president? Nil.

I'm sure the SCOTUS yawned because the last thing they need is for their docket to be full of challenges of every two-bit crank presidential candidate that comes along.

I've traced the seal. It is almost perfectly round. How did that happen? Tri-fold a paper and draw circles on the folds like the COLB. Then hold that paper up to your computer screen until the edge of the paper matches the angles on the edge of the computer image. Take a photo and then trace the circle.

I've done it. It looks almost square. There is no other way I can hold the paper and still have the edge match what's on the screen.

You get a circle to look perfectly round in that scenario and then come back and tell me how you did it.

What evidence do you have that there was anything where the longest line of print should have been on #1? It doesn't matter what the photo was INTENDED to show; what matters is what is there. Every other line shows clearly except that longest line, which should have come most of the way to the seal. If the brightness was fine with the seal, why did it block out the print just an inch or so away?

So your answer to my question about how the military would respond to a foreign-born person becoming president is "It could never happen here."

They said that in Germany too.

I've got a whole list of stuff that was never supposed to be able to happen in America that's happened in less than six months. http://veritasbelt.blogspot.com

Obama's mother was an American. That makes him a native-born American citizen even if he was born on Mars. Just like John McCain and every child born to a member of the military or the State Department, etc. born outside of the US is a native-born citizen. Isn't whether or not he was born in Hawaii irrelevant unless you believe he was lying about who is mother was as well?

Greyhawk wrote: "While I'm at it - Jon, the "white guy" question is hardly an honest response. I think Nellie's original question was very much political and had nothing to do with race. If you mean to say "you're a racist" in response to anyone questioning Obama's birth certificate you are certainly a worthy opponent for them in the debate."

Okay, I withdraw the question. It was a bit of a cheap shot, my apologies.

Nellie wrote: "If the brightness was fine with the seal, why did it block out the print just an inch or so away?"

Please learn something about photography, macro photography, depth of field, exposure, etc.

The politifact images don't seem to have been scanned, they appear to have been photographed.

Greyhawk, I have spent many sleepless nights and have typed my fingers bare communicating with my elected representatives because I see what's going on in America. I've listed some of it at http://veritasbelt.blogspot.com and I've got more typed up to add to it.

I blew off the eligibility thing too, until Berg filed his case and Obama chose to hire high-powered lawyers to fight it rather than just give us a peek at what he said he already posted.

I have presented my facts. To date I haven't seen any explanation that accounts for what is observed. I hold to the scientific principle that a natural phenomenon should be reproducible. When someone shows me a real document that acts like the COLB's posted, I will consider the possibility that the COLB is genuine.

And why would Obama's mother travel all the way to Kenya from her home in Hawaii just to give birth?? Oppose Obama all you want for his policies, but this is an utterly ridiculous argument.

Nice blog here, by the way.

The law at the time of Obama's birth said that a person had to have had 5 years as a US citizen after the age of 14 in order to pass US citizenship to her children if they were born outside the country. Obama's mother was not 19 when Obama was born.

I don't think anybody is saying that Ann Dunham wasn't an American citizen. But the law had a stricter requirement for conferring citizenship to children born out of the country. That's why the location of birth is so vital.

And for those convinced of tomorrow's outcome, I have no insight, but ponder the term "sympathetic judge". Having read some of the motions in this one, I can't imagine anyone with that much sympathy.

Again, I have no insight on that matter. Other judges have dismissed cases and/or refused them and demanded the attorneys involved show cause why they shouldn't pick up the tab for all legal fees.

Nellie wrote: "That's why the location of birth is so vital."

So why are you suggesting that the governor of Hawaii, a Republican, is a liar?

Jim, the Obamas have said that the family in Kenya didn't like Ann when they met her. When did they meet her? Both Barack Sr and Ann were in college while it was in session their first year of marriage. Obama was born in the summer. The following school year Barack Sr was at Harvard and Ann was in Hawaii.

When did the Obama family in Kenya meet Ann?

And why did Sarah Obama, Obama's step-grandma, say that he was born in Kenya? Why did the Kenyan government forbid any media contact with Sarah Obama after she was tape recorded saying that? What of Obama's Kenyan "records" did Odinga seal up in Kenya if he wasn't born there?

The story in Kenya is that Ann wanted to fly back to Hawaii but wasn't allowed to do so because the delivery was so near. She gave birth in Mombasa and a few days later flew back to Hawaii. The Hawaiian government at that time would have allowed either he or her parents to register the child's birth in Hawaii but the long-form certificate would have to be the one from the hospital wherever the birth took place.

Tell you what, Jon. You reproduce the phenomena that I've observed, videotape it, and put it on Youtube. If you can show it to me I will buy you a beer.

Ok, Nellie. So what's your explanation for the COLB, containing information validated as correct by the state of Hawaii, listing the place of birth as Honolulu?

And what's with the stuff about the seal in the photo? It looks perfectly ok to me. I don't even know what you claim to be seeing here.

Greyhawk, I'm sorry that you find my questions absurd. Let's say Hugo Chavez wanted to destroy America so instead of running for office in Venezuela where he was born he studied in America and passed himself off as an American.

Would you be required to follow his orders? How would you specifically uphold your oath to the Constitution which allows ONLY natural-born citizens to be CIC?

This isn't a gotcha. I've been asking myself a lot lately what I would have done if I had been in Germany when Hitler rose to power. Would I be a Dietrich Bonhoeffer and try to assassinate Hitler? Would I be one who gave up and grew accustomed to the smell of burnt flesh because it was impossible to resist? What would I have done? It's a gut-wrenching question. I don't take these questions lightly.

In fact, these questions have been a huge stumbling block between my husband and me. I don't envy any military person facing these questions, and I ask them with all due respect for your patriotism and earnestness.

Nellie, for your first paragraph, please source. Perhaps a family member of Barack Obama Sr. was already living in America, or they traveled there to meet him.

Sarah Obama did not say that he was born in Kenya. What you are referencing was a mistranslation during an interview where, after realizing the mistake, both the translator and the grandmother repeatedly reiterated that Obama was born in Hawaii. The interview was set up by a Kenyan national who was paid by the interviewer to dig up documents that proved that Obama was born in Kenya. He uncovered absolutely nothing.

You're asking us to believe that a nine-months pregnant woman flew to Kenya for no reason whatsoever, despite the fact that air travel is dangerous for pregnant women. Once again:

1) The State of Hawaii, governed by a Republican, says they issued that document.

2) The State of Hawaii, again governed by a Republican, has confirmed that all information on that document corresponds with their records in every detail.

3) For what you are implying to be true, it would require an enormous conspiracy involving bipartisan support at virtually all levels of government, as well as having have its roots literally on the exact day of birth of a mixed-race child on the assumption that he would one day grow up to be President. In 1961. Three years before the Civil Rights Act that would make segregation illegal.

Jon, the Republican governor of Hawaii has never validated the posted COLB. Never. To do so would actually be a breach of privacy.

All we have on the authenticity of the posted COLB is Obama's word and a seal that doesn't bend when the page it's on bends (that doesn't even show up with edge detection on the COLB Obama posted).

That is problematic to me. And it's problematic also to the government, which will not accept a scanned computer image for ANY legal documentation purposes. Especially not images that were generated in Photoshop, as both fightthesmears and Factcheck images were.

"And it's problematic also to the government, which will not accept a scanned computer image for ANY legal documentation purposes. "

Um, right. But it's a lot easier for Obama to show his birth certificate to a government official with the appropriate authority, than it is for him to show it to every birther who asks.

Maybe if you send Obama your original birth certificate he'll send you his?

Brain, the state of Hawaii has never validated what was posted on the websites. In an interview with Politifact they concluded that they could not say what the images on Factcheck represent.

The only validation from the State of Hawaii would be IF the seal was authentic.

To see what I'm talking about with the seal, put a piece of clear plastic up to your screen and use a Sharpie to trace both circles on that page - one intersected by the top fold and one intersected by the bottom fold. Then compare the shapes.

The angle of the folds are nearly the same so the degree of flattening at the point where the paper folds should be about the same. But the seal doesn't flatten at all. When I traced it, it was just very slightly elongated, which is the opposite direction it should have distorted.

"When I traced it, it was just very slightly elongated, which is the opposite direction it should have distorted."

No, the paper is tilted, so there's a perspective distortion too.

"Nice blog here" - thanks.

For anyone new, I'm a retired military guy (2X Iraq last as part of the surge) who tends to discuss military-related issues without regard for any politician or party who may endorse or oppose.

I am "pro-war" once the balloon goes up. That could be interpreted as "I'm a we broke it we bought it guy" too. I am not a fanatic. I believe the U.S. military has almost done all it can do for Iraq. I question whether Afghanistan can be "worth it". (I think the answer is "maybe".) Because I really don't care all that much about the politics per se, these days I'm generally cursed as a Republican one week and a Democrat the next.

I have been a guest in the White House (didn't meet Obama, met Jones and some other folks). My wife met President Bush there once. I was in Iraq at the time.

I do not mind being told I'm wrong. I don't particularly get too upset if someone things I'm an idiot. I have very low tolerance for accusations I'm dishonest. I generally don't treat commenters like I did Karen, but something about her made me believe I was going to gain nothing intellectually from talking to her. I may also be angrier than normal both because I thought the next four years would be different than the last and because my wife spent the day visiting with wounded troops from Afghanistan who are very worried about their fellow troops and this is a story about a guy who is using Afghanistan for his own twisted purposes, a guy who I'd bet could tell you nothing of the country he was to report to within days. In my inbox right now is an email from a guy who just got there and who knows a lot.

I've seen lots of pictures of guys in level 4 armor handing out school supplies to young children. I have had a small part in helping make such a thing happen on behalf of a friend whose son was killed in Iraq. Now I would like to see pictures of unarmored guys handing out school books and boarding planes.

Jax, I'll look for that source. In the meantime could you find any statement where Hawaii officials affirm that the COLB posted on either fightthesmears or FActcheck (because they are not identical) is authentic and that Obama was born in Hawaii.

All it would take for this to happen is for Obama's birth to be registered in Hawaii, for him to get a social security number (there are upwards of 30 social security numbers for variations of Barack Obama/Soetoro all born on his birthdate), and for him to hide all his records. Which he's done.

Nobody has to cover up for him because confidentiality laws already do that.

Factcheck did forge a seal for him, but that was only because people got snoopy about his records. By that time he had already done everything needed to get where he's at now. He's still hiding behind confidentiality laws.

As for Sarah Obama, I have listened to the tape multiple times and I need to ask you this: On the part right after Sarah had said Obama was born in Hawaii and the interviewer asked her to clarify that - how many seconds did the translator take to translate from English to Swahili, how many seconds did it take her to answer in Swahili, and how many seconds did it take the translator to translate her answer back into English?

I counted a total of zero seconds. How many do you get?

Jon, the same tilt exists for the top circle. See, the top circle acts like a scientific control group. It has the same factors as the bottom one. So whatever affects the seal should also affect the top circle in the same way. But it doesn't.

But again, if you can reproduce this particular phenomena and post it on YouTube I will happily buy you a beer. =)

"Factcheck did forge a seal for him, but that was only because people got snoopy about his records."

Why would they do that?

Isn't your conspiracy theory getting pretty big? Seems like it'd be a lot simpler just to accept that you're mistaken, his COLB is genuine, he was born in Hawaii when he says he was, and give it up.

Brain, the state of Hawaii has never validated what was posted on the websites. In an interview with Politifact they concluded that they could not say what the images on Factcheck represent.

But that's not what I said. I said that the state had validated the contained information as accurate.

To see what I'm talking about with the seal, put a piece of clear plastic up to your screen and use a Sharpie to trace both circles on that page - one intersected by the top fold and one intersected by the bottom fold. Then compare the shapes.

The angle of the folds are nearly the same so the degree of flattening at the point where the paper folds should be about the same. But the seal doesn't flatten at all. When I traced it, it was just very slightly elongated, which is the opposite direction it should have distorted.

I think you don't understand geometry as well as you think you do.

"So whatever affects the seal should also affect the top circle in the same way. But it doesn't."

No, it's a different tilt. It's hard to see because you can't see the bottom and top edges of the paper. They aren't parallel.

Obama hasn't had to show his birth certificate to anybody in order to get this far. Even in states where the Secretary of State is required to verify eligibility (such as NJ) nobody can make them look at the birth certificate - as Leo Donofrio can tell you.

I called my secretary of state's office and he said they only require the candidate to sign a paper saying that they're eligible.

And we all know that politicians always tell the truth. lol.

Obama is not a president and he is not a goo citizen."said soldier.i hope that the men in this country, particularly in our military will finally revolt against this travesty of Justice.

Greyhawk,
Great blog. A bit of advice, if you'll allow me. As an American citizen who just happened to be born into an African American family, I have dealt with numerous and continuous questions about my qualifications to teach school, to live in a certain neighborhood, to speak Standard English, to like opera, to buy designer clothing and other items, and it has been my experience that unless one fits certain parameters set up by certain members of this society, one is never good enough. Let the birthers believe whatever they want to believe, file whatever lawsuits they want to file, and do whatever else is their hearts' desire. There is nothing that can be said to them about President Obama's birth certificate that they'll ever accept as fact. In fact, if I had succumbed to the questions and suspicions I've had to deal with my 50+ years living in America, I would not have been able to be successful in any way in my lifetime. I had to decide early on to let people say/question whatever they wanted to say/question about me while I went about the business of building my life and career. This is the only path to victory when dealing with people like these birthers. While they are busy chasing conspiracy theories, the rest of us, including President Obama will be working to improve things in this country, because, after all, we already know who we are.

But I tested this by duplicating the situation. To get the side angles to match I had to have both top and bottom folds at a specific angle and the whole page pulled toward me on my right-hand side. There was only one way of having the paper that would match everything up.

And the photo I took showed the top one looking like it did on the screen but the bottom one looked almost square, probably because the fold is higher up on the circle.

I'm very serious when I say that if you can show me an example of this happening in real life and how it happens I will be thrilled to pieces. I would like to believe that our law enforcement system is honest. I'd love to have my country back. I wish I'd wake up and find this has been a bad dream. So go for it. Show me how they did it and I'll buy you a beer.

"I'm very serious when I say that if you can show me an example of this happening in real life and how it happens I will be thrilled to piece"

I honestly don't think you'd believe any evidence.

Majii, if anyone can show me a document that behaves like the COLB's posted on both fightthesmears and Factcheck I will happily be quiet and call Obama president. I've given some specific data points which would have to match. I'll wait and see what anyone can show me. I know what I tested and saw with my own eyes. I could not duplicate the phenomena I observed.

lol. Show me the evidence. It's the only way you'll find out.

...but the bottom one looked almost square

The bottom circle looked almost square?

Sure, right. Whatever you say. I totally see that now. By the way, did you also notice that one of the rocks in the foreground has a letter "C" on it? That totally shows that the whole thing was done on a movie set.

Majii
having grown up a white kid in a very black neighborhood and spent some years overseas I know something of what you mean.

Oddly enough, having spent the past 24 years in the military overall I have experienced the exact opposite of all that. (Other aspects of the lifestyle ain't quite so fine...)

I have a daughter who was born in Korea, by the way. Absolutely an all-American girl.:)

Brain, it looked almost square when I photographed a circle on a real paper folded like that.

But why believe me when you can do the experiment yourself? I'd be curious to see what you come up with.

Brain, it looked almost square when I photographed a circle on a real paper folded like that.

No it didn't. There is no way that you can make a fold in a piece of paper that makes a circle come out to look like a square.

In this case, with a fold of, what, 20 degrees or so, held at an angle of 30 degrees or so to the viewing axis it's pretty hard to make it look like anything but a slightly squashed circle.

But why believe me when you can do the experiment yourself? I'd be curious to see what you come up with.

*sigh*. Sure. I have a piece of paper here, and I tried it. No, no squares. You're completely deluded. Sincerely.

Certainly.

"I, as Director of Health for the State of Hawai‘i, along with the Registrar of Vital Statistics who has statutory authority to oversee and maintain these type of vital records, have personally seen and verified that the Hawai‘i State Department of Health has Sen. Obama’s original birth certificate on record in accordance with state policies and procedures.

“No state official, including Governor Linda Lingle, has ever instructed that this vital record be handled in a manner different from any other vital record in the possession of the State of Hawai‘i.”

Please, tell me how the state policies and procedures of Hawaii allow state officials to misrepresent a state-issued certificate of live birth, which states that Barack Obama was born in Hawaii.

You have your day in court, Nellie. It won't satisfy you, because you are a conspiracy theorist.

I think the whole citizenship inquiry is racist in nature.

Jax, that said nothing about the posted COLB. It said only that they have his original birth certificate on file. That's precisely what we'd like to see.

Brain, I just checked it again. The top part of it looks like a square with rounded edges. The whole thing looks sort of like a kidney bean.

What shape did you come up with? Did you actually photograph it and then trace the shape? Our eyes are used to seeing 3 dimensions so it makes for some optical illusions. I photographed it with my son's digital camera and then I zoomed into just the area where the simulated "seal" was. That took the context away and gave me just a 2-dimensional shape.

The left side of the circle looks almost straight because the fold brings the top of the circle in a straight line with the bottom half rather than curved to the right to make an oval. Without the bend in the paper, just holding the paper flat with that much forward tilt, it forms an oval that's taller than it is wide.

No matter what I do with it, the paper being closer to me on the right side always compresses the width and the fold always makes the top of the circle lean left.

Right, jbjd. That's what my SOS said also.

But NJ actually does have a law requiring their SOS to verify eligibility before putting a candidate's name on the ballot. That's why Donofrio took it through the courts. The lower courts all threw it out for lack of standing. (Of course it's none of our business if our elected officials aren't doing their job and of course we can't petition the government for a redress of grievances - silly us, thinking this is our country and the First Amendment meant what it said!) It only made it to the SCOTUS because of procedural errors on the part of the government which allowed Donofrio to appeal to SCOTUS.

You sound like you have a knowledge of how government things work (or don't work. lol) Once somebody is elected, do we the people have any way to force them to do their job? This came up in the Ohio ACORN situation where the SOS checked voter registrations against DMV and SS records as required by HAVA - but then she hid what she found and never used it. Does the law have to prescribe every page flip and photocopy these folks should make in order to have a case that they're not following the law?

Nellie. You will have your day in court. You won't accept the decision that is handed down, but you will have it. Once again:

For what you are implying to be true, it would require an enormous conspiracy involving bipartisan support at virtually all levels of government, as well as having have its roots literally on the exact day of birth of a mixed-race child on the assumption that he would one day grow up to be President. In 1961. Three years before the Civil Rights Act that would make segregation illegal.

That is irrefutable. This would have had to have gotten past the Clinton political machine, Karl Rove, John McCain and the American people. If there were any validity to what you were saying, it would have been exploited for political gain years ago.

"...De Facto commander in chief..."

Hey, you nailed it! Absent any proof that he is eligible to be POTUS, that is the perfect term for him.

The problem with these "birthers" is they're too dumb to realise that Obama hasn't released his records because politically it's advantageous to have the GOP associated with morons like these birthers.

The more they go on about it and argue an ever increasing level of conspiracy, the more independent voters shake their heads and think to themselves that if that's what constitutes Republican party voters, then they'll be voting for Obama.

Oh and guys, can I make a suggestion there is absolutely no point in arguing reason with people like Nellie. One of the first things I learnt in my classes at college was that you cannot have a rational debate with an irrational person.

Getting back to Maj. Dumbass for a moment...

As far as I can tell, Maj Cook didn't violate anything he could be punished for.

IANAL (or a JAG), but based on my reading of UCMJ Article 94, he's coming awful close to sedition:

(2) with intent to cause the overthrow or destruction of lawful civil authority, creates, in concert with any other person, revolt, violence, or disturbance against that authority is guilty of sedition;

His idiot lawyer is openly calling for a military coup d'etat (overthrow or destruction of lawful civil authority); he brought this suit in support of that effort (in concert with any other person). He's also publically challenged the legitimacy of his entire chain of command, from President Obama to the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs all the way down to his immediate CO. Damn straight his services are no longer required by SOCCENT; at minimum he's won a DD.

Until proven otherwise, President Obama is the legitimate CinC of the U.S. armed forces. It is not up to the military (much less some dumbass O-4 with an idiot for a lawyer) to challenge that legitimacy. Unless the birthers win their case in court (and they won't), the military is obliged to follow his orders.

Dang, blockquote fail. Obviously, everything from "His idiot lawyer..." down should not be blockquoted.

Jax, the whole world is looking and not one of us has access to the final proof - his long-form birth certificate. Berg is a Clinton supporter. His opposition research is stuck in court cases right now. What more could anyone have done?

Had anyone ever scrutinized John McCain's birth certificate to this extent? Has it been posted online? Just wondering.

Only problem with your theory, Charlie, is that the public is increasingly saying that something is amiss because Obama won't give just one teeny-tiny peek at ANYTHING.

There's no chance that Obama will be re-elected. He's got to know that. Look again at what he's done in less than 6 months. http://veritasbelt.blogspot.com

I don't think I'm the irrational one when I'm the one who has mentioned the facts regarding the 2 versions of a COLB that he had posted online. I don't think it's irrational to wonder why he first said he was born at Queens Hospital and then sent a letter to Kapiolani Hospital saying he was born there - but then when it was mentioned by WND the hospital hid it on their website and Robert Gibbs gave a condescending answer when asked about it, telling us all to look at Obama's fraudulent COLB online.

So hey, we're just following Obama's own orders.

In any event, if you don't have an answer for me as to why the fightthesmears COLB has only one fold and no seal showing on the front when edge detection is applied, why the seal on Factcheck #5 doesn't bend with the fold, why Factcheck #1 is missing the longest line of print immediately under the bottom fold... then you're right about one thing: it's pointless for us to converse, because I am interested in facts rather than name-calling.

Nellie wrote: "Berg is a Clinton supporter. "

Berg is a looney-tunes 9/11 truther, too.

I don't know about your feelings on 9/11, but I think you're clearly also a loon.

"I don't think I'm the irrational one when I'm the one who has mentioned the facts "

Those aren't facts, those are your delusions and ignorance. There's nothing wrong with the posted COLB.

Charlie, you said "until proven otherwise". If Hugo Chavez wouldn't allow us to see his birth certificate how would you PROVE he's not eligible to be our president?

There's one reason Obama hasn't been PROVEN: he's hiding behind the skirts of privacy laws.

I'm getting back to my original question. How would America stop someone like Chavez from becoming president if anybody who wants the job of president can hide behind the law and say nanner-nanner-nanner to anyone who believes it's up to him to show his eligibility if he wants the job?

If Hugo Chavez became president, which would be the duty of the military - to follow their oath to the Constitution and to defend against both foreign AND DOMESTIC enemies, or to not start an "insurrection"?

And when did asking a simple question become insurrection? We're not living in Iran or Venezuela yet. But of course, if we can't ask questions or demand accountability it won't be long, because, in effect, we DO have Hugo Chavez for our president, and we have accepted it without a blink.

"There's one reason Obama hasn't been PROVEN: he's hiding behind the skirts of privacy laws."

Right. So private he let factcheck post his birth certificate. Which you don't accept because of your funny ideas about geometry and your ignorance of photography.

Jon H, if your reality includes seals that don't bend when the page they're on folds, documents whose lines don't match being the same document, and a raised surface not showing up even with edge detection, then there's nothing more I can say to you.

Except maybe read George Orwell's "1984".

Jon H, if he had no objection to letting Factcheck (nobody else, mind you) see the 3-D document and had no problem with letting everybody see what he CLAIMED was on the document, then why doesn't that count as permission to see the real thing? Or at least authorize the State of Hawaii to say whether what he posted matches what's in their file?

He posted what he did because there is no way to verify its genuineness. And in fact, there's glaring evidence that he posted 2 different, unidentical documents and called them both his COLB, and that what he posted has no seal on it.

Just like he has said two different hospitals are BOTH where he was born.

If that raises no alarms in your mind, then what ever WOULD raise alarms? How would you expect a fraud to act if not like this?

Sorry. I addressed Charlie when the post I was referring to was from John Bode.

Also, I've looked for the original reference where Sarah Obama said Ann Obama was in Kenya and was turned off by the way Muslim men treat their women, and had the baby in Mombasa. The articles I can find refer to "several news reports" as though they could be easily referenced but I can't find the original news source. That's either because there isn't one and this is just rumor, or because Google has hidden the source under multiple layers of smoke.

I say that because I've seen how things disappear from Google and also because I couldn't find the article I know I read which spoke about Sarah Obama telling about her husband's conversion to and from Christianity.

I also know that Mr. Shuhubia has signed an affidavit saying that hospital officials there have said that they have Obama's birth records, that Jerome Corsi says Odinga sealed all the records, and that Corsi was detained without reason and deported from Kenya. I also know that at least one Kenyan official has referred to a government project to put a landmark where Obama was born there in Kenya.

Tom, who could prove that he was a non-citizen? How?

Another Judge Finds Reason To Look Into Obama's Citizenship

Another thing. It was the DOD's decision to revoke the orders, thus forcing some other soldier to go at a minute's notice. They had two options: answer the question, or force someone else to bend over backwards for their own unwillingness to answer the question.

What did they choose? The same thing Obama has ALWAYS chosen. To shaft somebody else to cover his own sorry arse.

I will never forgive America for giving our military men and women even a pretend CIC this crappy, who despises every one of them and the sacrifices they have made and continue to make.

"That's either because there isn't one and this is just rumor, or because Google has hidden the source under multiple layers of smoke."

Ah, yes, so now Google's in on the conspiracy.

Right. Have you considered psychiatric help?

Nellie, the fact that you won't believe the people who actually held the COLB in their sweaty little hands, proves that no matter what proof Obama submits you will not believe it!

What did they choose? The same thing Obama has ALWAYS chosen. To shaft somebody else to cover his own sorry arse.

As for who's doing the shafting, Maj. Cook's the one who is responsible for some other schmuck being activated at the last minute by deciding that he can't serve under the guy who was President when he volunteered in the first place. The military revoked his orders because his behavior screams "don't let me anywhere near a field command".

He publicly challenged the legitimacy of his entire chain of command in federal court. His lawyer is openly calling for a coup d'etat against the President of the United States. He's flirting with Article 94 of the UCMJ; goddamned straight "his services are no longer required" by the Army.

The "birthers" are thieves: they've now stolen the book we Lefties use to illustrate where Dubya was taking our country!

Nellie, return our "1984" immediately!

Oh, and STFU. You are even more tedious than Alex Jones, fercrapssake. Your "one-note-samba" has become full-blown monomania. Seek help. But, then, most of your friends and family have probably told you that. At the risk of being accused of sexism, you need your hormones adjusted. And your medication.

Greyhawk:
Great blog, thanks for laying it out like this. In particular, that Maj. Cook volunteered in the first place is something of which I was previously unaware.

Charlie:
Good point regarding Obama's decision not to release further information. Politically, Obama's biggest strength has been to know when to stand back and let his opponents self-destruct. Remember when McCain "suspended" his campaign to fix the economy?

Causal, Obama's decision to not reveal more information means that some soldier was stuck going to Afghanistan on a moment's notice. Greyhawk had a problem with that result and so do I.

Where we apparently differ is on who is responsible for that decision that was so inconsiderate. Cook asked a question. Obama refused to answer. I'd call that cowardice at someone else's expense.

If you believe that Cook is to blame, it's sort of like the dysfunctional view that the kid who asks questions is to blame when the daddy beats him raw - he shouldn't have asked the question in the first place since a question is more than a dad should be able to handle.

Why are you guys wasting your time responding to Nellie? They call them 'nervous nellie' for a reason.

Nice site you have here, Greyhawk. I admire your stance on focusing attention where it NEEDS to be put, rather than where a few conspiracy theorists would prefer it be placed. Too many people putting on tin-foil hats, instead of the hard-hats and rolled up sleeves that our situation now requires.

Please forgive the candor of this first-time poster, but...

Nellie, you should seriously give the whole birther thing a rest. You don't appear to be reading and/or considering any of the posts encouraging you to face certain facts. And your lack of knowledge related to scanned digital images vs. digital images taken with a camera, including the resulting parallel shifts, only seem to be clouding your brain further.

FYI: Here's a site that may enable you to see things a little more clearly...

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2008/jun/27/obamas-birth-certificate-part-ii/

Though judging by what you've posted here in this thread, I do have my doubts you'll believe any of it... except perhaps for the last section where it says "It is possible that Obama conspired his way to the precipice of the world's biggest job, involving a vast network of people and government agencies over decades of lies. Anything's possible."

But, as it also states at that site, "step back and look at the overwhelming evidence to the contrary and your sense of what's reasonable has to take over."

Ready to be reasonable, Nellie?

Didn't think so.

John Bode, Cook never said he didn't want to go to Afghanistan. He asked to have his CIC's bona fides verified first so he could go with Geneva Convention protections and remain true to his oath to defend the Constitution of the US against enemies foreign and domestic.

The DOD gal said Cook had the option of backing out of the deployment up to the day of leaving. But Cook never did that. It was the DOD which denied him the chance to go to Afghanistan because they revoked his orders.

Why did they do it? Because he asked a question, for heaven's sakes?

Or because there was a hearing which might have concluded that Obama should spend 3 seconds signing his name to authorize the release of information so his soldier could act in good conscience in going to Afghanistan?

We'll never know why because the DOD can't break "confidentiality laws". I wonder if Cook could authorize them to reveal why they revoked his orders. He's got nothing to hide, unlike the CIC who uses confidentiality laws like human shields, to cower behind while acting like a big man.

Nellie,

I think what you are looking for is for Obama to do the impossible and prove conclusively that there is nothing being hidden. Absence of evidence... blah, blah, blah. You are wanting him to provide a logistical and logical impossibility. Anyone could ask the same of you, and it would be just as stupid a request. Can you prove that there is no vast bipartisan, multi-national conspiracy dating back to the year of your birth, selectively obscuring events, falsifying data, etc. in order to facilitate your eventual rise to power? No, you can't because you would have to present evidence proving the absence of a conspiracy beyond all doubt. Evidence that I would then discard for one reason or another as tainted by the conspiracy.

Would his chain of command have verified Obama's eligibility for him? That's all he's asking.

Anyone who volunteers to be in the military signs away their ability to ask questions in a respectful and lawful way? If they wanted to ask questions they shouldn't volunteer to be in the military? I've heard the line about "If we would have wanted you to have a wife we would have issued you one", but does that now include issuing thoughts as well - so a soldier is forbidden to think?

Seems to me that Nuremburg had something to say about not only the right but the DUTY of soldiers to think and not just do whatever they're told.

JPEG images of John McCain's birth certificate and accompanying affidavits including doctor's signature can be found at http://johnmccain.dominates.us/forum/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=145

The only official document we've seen regarding Obama's past is a school registration form from Indonesia which says he's an Indonesian citizen named Barry Soetoro, the son of Lolo Soetoro. Did Reagan, Ford, Bush 1, Bush 2, Carter, Nixon, or Clinton have any documents show up saying they were a citizen of another country?

Since then we've also seen 2 different internet versions of his COLB (both produced in Photoshop) - one not having a seal at all and the other having a seal that doesn't bend with the fold - and a selective service registration form that wasn't in use the year it says it was filed.

Hawaii has NEVER - I repeat, NEVER - said that the posted COLB is authentic and has NEVER verified any information on it. Someone posted a link which had the HI official saying they have Obama's birth certificate on file. That's it. Period. When specifically asked by Politifact if the posted COLB was authentic, they said they could not say what that image represented.

You mention scanning artifacts. Why are those artifacts only present in the vital areas in question and not present on the rest of the document? I've already stated that the top circle provides a control group for the bottom one. If scan artifacts were going to affect the seal, they should also have affected the other circle. If focus, angle, scan quality, etc was going to wipe out whole lines of print why did it only wipe out ONE line?

Factcheck was disingenuous to show the seal in relief because it shows it's a different document than the fightthesmears document which, even with edge detection applied, shows no seal image. If the surface was that raised, then how the heck did it evade showing up under edge detection? It couldn't. It is obviously a different document.

And where can I go to put my sweaty little hands on the "physical copy" that he provided? Seems to me he provided it for about 14 minutes to some friends at Factcheck and then locked it up all these many months - refusing to let Hawaii verify any of the information on it and refusing to let anybody but Factcheck even see the thing. Why did he do that? That's the tactic of a scam artist. I can't believe you buy it.

Gosh, I can't believe the judge dismissed the case, Nellie. Didn't he see how hard you argued on the internet?

Sounds like over jurisdictional matters. The case will be re-filed in Florida.

YES. No doubt that was the problem. I can't tell you what a service it has been having your keen legal mind here over the past couple of days. Tell me, all this business about square seals and Snickers bars... that's all getting admitted into evidence, right?

The judge ignored the people who joined the lawsuit and the class-action nature of the question and said that after the revocation the suit was only a retaliation case. Since Cook was no longer supposed to be in Georgia the judge said to refile the case in Florida. Whether that means that a Florida judge would have to also ignore large chunks of the argument, I don't know.

As of September 11, 2001 anyone who asks for due diligence is NOT the person who has lost their grip on reality.

The sad thing about 9-11 is that the military had already identified Atta and his AQ cell as potential domestic enemies a year before the attack. But the DOD quashed and gagged Able Danger even though they have since admitted that it didn't violate Gorelick's wall because the attackers were not US citizens. Of course, nobody would have known they weren't American citizens by looking at voter registration. Several of them were registered to vote.

The military "little people" sounded the red alarm asking for vigilance and the leadership at the DOD silenced them.

Probably because their method also raised red alarms about Defense Secretary William Perry also - a red alarm which was vindicated when a judge forced Perry to obey the FOIA and it was found that Perry's own company sold dual-use satellite technology to a front company they knew was owned by the Chinese military leader's wife.

The Cox Report had already raised a LOT of red flags about Chinese front companies and the Thompson Report had strongly implicated Clinton's administration in selling out to the Chinese, but Janet Reno obstructed both of those Congressional investigations and then refused to implement their suggestion for due vigilance.

In other words, CYA won out over the red alarms. As a result about 3,000 people were killed in NYC on 9-11.

So I know the military CAN exercise due vigilance on domestic enemies as the officer's oath requires. I also know that CYA among the top brass - protecting their own rather than the country - happens.

I have a firm grasp of that reality and of the cost this country has paid for that lack of vigilance in the face of red alarms being sounded.

I also know that both the communists and Islamofascists have said they can defeat America from within - by pretending to be normal Americans and preying on our gullible trust. Several of the 9-11 attackers were registered to vote.

America's apathetic response to the red alarms - to the chocolate on the face and the clenched fist in response to queries - in effect says to the communists and Islamofascists, "Come on in! Only crazy people who don't have a grip on reality would suggest we should check out whether you really are who you say you are!"

That, in a post-9-11 world, is what it really looks like to lose your grasp of reality. Our domestic enemies will always look legit on the surface. That's the definition of "domestic enemy". The officer's oath is to look past the surface. If the person is legit that will be shown in the investigation so there is no harm in vigilance. There IS harm in non-vigilance.

I believe Cook is on the same level of earnestness as the Able Danger folks were. And unfortunately, it looks like the same thing that happened to them is happening to him. Sad.

I as a private citizen of the United States find it a bit disconcerting that our military would without question follow the commands of a person with questionable credentials giving those commands.

Equally unnerving is the fact that should any military officer question that persons eligibility to give those commands should find themself belittled by his comrades for daring to do so.

I use to take solace in the thinking that it would be completely impossible for this nation to ever become a nazi Germany with its military blindly following the orders of a leader of questionable origin and intent.

It appears I was misguided in my belief.

It's been an eye-opening year, hasn't it, Jordan?

Yes my Friend it has.

Wow... I had no idea the birthers had gone so far off the deep end. As a first time visitor to the site, let me say one thing--you folks really need to get on some medication for your paranoia.

I find the massive spin and ignorance of this topic impressive to say the least.

You have 2 sides to this argument....

Greyhawk interrupts this comment to say:
9,000 ft long comment full of spelling errors, grammatical abuses, repetitions of previous comments, and links to even more moonbattery DELETED. And though he was one of you, you birthers owe me your thanks for that. Trust me.

I too find it deeply disturbing that our military listens to the democratically-elected President of the United States, and not to random lunatics on the internet. Good lord, what has happened to the chain of command when chickenhawks and conspiracy theorists are no longer in charge of the armed forces?

Godwin point!: July 17, 2009 7:08 AM

Yes, my repeated non-partisan assertions that folks should enter a war of ideas armed with ideas is certainly helping the slide of this country into Nazism.

And my consistent position that actual shooting war trumps party ideology is at long last revealed for what it always was all along.

I took the time to go to- http://www.factcheck.org/UploadedFiles/Birth_Certificate_1,jpg on up to 9.jpg. It was an interesting study. As you look at the different images, they establish a few things as legal fact, in a Court of Law. This includes both State and Federal Courts. Obama was born in the State of Hawaii in 1961. Hawaii became a state in 1959. As you look at the images from the website listed above, you'll see some interesting things. To change the image, in your address bar, starting at the right, you have a number (dot) jpg. Take your cursor and put it to the right of the number and click. Then delete ONCE, and put a new number in there, 1-9. I know everybody knows, my problem is I was taught how to spell the word "ASS-U-ME". You see the raised seal stamp of the State of Hawaii, the ink stamp of the Registrar plus the date of creation of this copy of the documents, 6 JUN 2007. I may not like everything Obama does, but this is not the way to change it. They just might get a whole lot more than they bargained for in their lives. I hope they get better counsel.

As always,
Grumpy

"So any and all orders eminating from a community organiser who came to power by being elected president due to a populous made blindly discontent by a partisan media which openly agitated bias against the existing administration through a recent war should be followed without question ?"

Oh, I see... what you're saying is that the American people cannot be trusted to make up their own minds.

Well, in that case, because we aren't able to think for ourselves, let's overturn this illegal sham of a government, and run our elections like the Iranians do, where those who KNOW what's best for the people--their religious leaders--disregard the people's vote and make the decision on their own as to who becomes the President.

Puhleeze.

Barack Hussein Obama is the 44th President of the United States of America, and as such, he has the responsibility of commanding the Armed Forces, and all military personnel have a sworn duty to follow his orders.

If you don't like it, then cast your vote for one of his opponents in 2012!

In the meantime, please stop advocating insurrection in the armed forces against our LEGALLY ELECTED PRESIDENT. It is, without a doubt, harmful to our troops, our citizens, and our country.

And it is anti-American.

Please forgive me if I incorrectly surmised that individuals who would place their lives on the line to protect this nation and its constitutional rights and freedoms would never deny anyone those granted by the first amendment.

Sorry , however I feel no responsibility to apologize for questioning the credibility of any individual no matter their position who openly and publicly lies to obtain said position.

This same president who now insists we must believe he meets the constitutional requirements to fill the position he now holds at one time dispelled any who dared inquire into his islamic past by stating " theyre making things up".

Months later that very same president exclaimed that his islamic past made him better suited to comprehend the problems of the mideast.

How many lies should a person require they be told before they should question the credibility of the one telling them ?

Okay - let's keep the thread going then.

NEW TOPIC:

Bush stole the 2000 election!!! (Arguments pro- or con- accepted, as above).

Ready?

Go!

"Sorry , however I feel no responsibility to apologize for questioning the credibility of any individual no matter their position who openly and publicly lies to obtain said position."

You did NOT question the credibility of President Obama. You questioned whether or not his orders should be followed "without question."

"So any and all orders eminating from a community organiser (THE PRESIDENT)... should be followed without question ?"

The answer is YES!

If you have issues with an order, then take it up with the chain of command.

I take it you would have us believe the people who support and assisted in the rise to power of the current "POTUS" are a powerless lot of meager finances ?

My refference to his position as a community organizer which he himself proudly proclaimed, was to draw a comparison to the current POTUS's rapid rise to power which mirrored that of another infamous "community organizer'.

"He was elected according to the rules laid out in the Constitution."

Was he ?
Is that not the very core issue of what this debate is about ?
Did this POTUS follow those "rules" ?
Was he in fact qualified to even Participate ?

Other than himself and possibly a small group of persons close to him , no one knows for sure.

And any who dare to question that eligibility are met with immediate attack and ridicule ,,, yet their question forever remains unanswered and the truth ever hidden.

When confronted with like question of his eligibility John McCain had no problem releasing the proper documents to certify his pedigree.
He suffered no long lasting ill effects for doing so , and those who questioned his eligibility suffered no hate filled attacks to my knowledge.

So why is it different with Obama ?
What gives him immunity to proving he is equally eligible when his pedigree is questioned ?

Why should those who would question his eligbility be ridiculed and attacked for simply requesting he prove he has the qualifications to rightfully hold the office of this nations leader ?

The last time I checked those who would question those qualifications come from both sides of the aisle.

FYI , no I did not support or vote for Obama, I did vote for John McCain not because I agree with his entire political ideology , but I saw him as the best qualified of the two choices for the position.

Had Hillary Clinton been McCains opponent , I would have voted for her ,, begrudgingly.

"If you actually had to, could you prove that you were not born somewhere else?"

Yes.

"If you apply the same criteria to yourself that you are applying here, the answer would have to be "NO"."

WRONG !

I can provide at least three credible people who actually wittnessed my birth , and many more who would testify to its location as well as the official documents stating its location and the medical personnel directly involved.

In case you are unaware, the only credible KNOWN wittness to Obamas actual birth has publicly stated that she wittnessed his birth in Kenya.

None have come forward to claim otherwise.

You also seem to be ignorant to the fact that there is a very large number of people who live in the nation of Kenya who would swear to the fact that he was born there.

To the best of my knowledge there is no one who would or could willingly or knowingly testify to my birth anywhere but where it actually took place.

"At this point, you just need to get over it."

Yeah, just like the poster who directly followed yours ?
Or the millions of Black U.S. citizens who still claim they are owed some sort of recompense for this nations legal slavery ?

"I can provide at least three credible people who actually wittnessed my birth , and many more who would testify to its location as well as the official documents stating its location and the medical personnel directly involved."

http://www.buffalonews.com/494/story/554495.html

There probably are other anecdotal recounts of President Obama's birth and early years in Hawaii, but if you expect the President or anyone in his administration to make attempts to contact people so they can tell their stories in order to mollify those who are not satisfied with records provided by a governmental agency... well, I don't know what to say. Actually, I do, but it's best to keep it to myself.

But even if they did locate and put on camera someone who states unequivocally that they were present during the birth of Barack Hussein Obama II in Honolulu Hawaii on August 6, 1941, there would still be doubters and disbelievers. There would be investigations by amatuer sleuths who would dig into that person's background and find something--ANYTHING--that would discount their recollections and support the "Birthers' Theories of Conspiracy and Coverup."

All you have to do is scroll up and read some of Nellie's postings to see that this is true.

As far as providing "official documents stating its location and the medical personnel directly involved," President Obama's Hawaiian Birth Certificate is a LEGAL and OFFICIAL document.

Our President may not have his ORIGINAL official document from when he was born, with whatever additional information on it that Hawaii may have collected at the time of his birth, but that proves nothing. I do not have mine. I have a legal certificate from the state of my birth, though, that clearly is officially recognized as the proper document to prove when and where I was born, as well as the date of my birth, my parents' names, etc.

President Obama has the same... an OFFICIAL document given to him by the State of Hawaii proving he was born in Honolulu on the day it says he was.

One of the main Birther rallying cries, posted and repeated again and again, is "Just show us the long form "Certificate of Live Birth" and we'll be done."

For some reason, there is a fixation on this... a belief that there is something hidden in the Hawaiian Government's files that will provide extra details that will disprove the fact that Barack Obama was born there.

But no one will have access to the long form, not even the President himself, because the State of Hawaii no longer makes them available.

*~*~*~*~*~*~*
"Although original birth certificates (Certificates of Live Birth) are preferred for their greater detail, the State Department of Health (DOH) no longer issues Certificates of Live Birth. When a request is made for a copy of a birth certificate, the DOH issues a Certification of Live Birth."

Look under "Primary Documents" to see the above statement:

http://hawaii.gov/dhhl/applicants/appforms/applyhhl

There's more about that here:

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2009/jul/01/worldnetdaily/birthers-claim-gibbs-lied-when-he-said-obamas-birt/
*~*~*~*~*~*~*

Another Birther claim is that a birth certificate could have been applied for by ANY adult, and that one could easily have been granted for a baby born outside of the country.

*~*~*~*~*~*~*
"In fact, only the legal parents of a child—in this case, Barack Obama Sr. and Stanley Ann Dunham—can apply for a birth certificate."

http://washingtonindependent.com/51652/some-more-clarity-on-hawaiian-birth-certificates?dsq=12827089#comment-12827089

"As for the theory that Obama's original birth certificate might show he was foreign-born, Okubo said the "Certification of Live Birth" would say so. Obama's does not. Again, it says he was born in Honolulu."

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2009/jul/01/worldnetdaily/birthers-claim-gibbs-lied-when-he-said-obamas-birt/
*~*~*~*~*~*~*

"You also seem to be ignorant to the fact that there is a very large number of people who live in the nation of Kenya who would swear to the fact that he was born there."

http://tesibria.typepad.com/whats_your_evidence/2008/09/was-obama-bor-1.html

If you read the Affidavit of Rev. Kweli Shuhubia posted at that site, you'll see he provides NO NAMES of people living in Kenya who supposedly witnessed or know about the alleged birth of President Obama in that country.

Please also read the other many Birther claims there, and the "evidence" either refuting or authenticating allegations that continue to be tossed out (in the hopes that something damning might stick?).

While the individual running that site openly admits to supporting President Obama prior to the election (and I'm sure they do now as well), he/she has done an EXCELLENT job at gathering, assembling, displaying, and disseminating data in a dispassionate and objective manner:

http://tesibria.typepad.com/whats_your_evidence/

Regarding the very poor audiotaped interview with President Obama's Grandmother, in which she allegedly claims that she was present at his birth in Kenya, listen to it, watch the video with the titles containing the subjective interpretation of what's being said, and then read the following...

http://www.blogordie.com/2008/11/the-smoking-grandmother/

While you may choose not to review any of the information above that disputes the many allegations made about our President, like Gene, I suggest you "get over it."

Live with your disappointment and anger and bitterness, if you must. Cling to your conspiracy theories and believe what you will. This is what is so great about our country. No one is forcing you to keep your mouth shut or lock your ideas up inside of your head.

Just understand that there are those who disagree with your assessments of this issue--the legitimacy of the Presidency of Barack Hussein Obama--and who don't approve of the small vocal group of Birthers who wish to overturn our legally-elected President and Commander in Chief by (almost) any means necessary.

I am one of them.

There are so many more important--make that CRITICAL--things we NEED to be focusing on as a nation.

I love how everyone fixates on the "community organizer" thing (like that's bad or something) and forgets all about him being a United States Senator and an Illinois State Senator before that.

That started as a quick retort to "Mayor of Wasilla" - both were political fair game back when, but yeah, that is one dead horse. Questionable motives for beating it aside, it is impossible to look good while performing the act.

And I might be wrong on the chicken/egg aspect of the dueling barbs - but which came first wasn't my point.

Faux-Major Cook is a jerk.
I received an email from someone who was very concerned for Faux Major Cook. They didn't have all the facts. This guy is an idiot of the highest order, and deserves to be shunned by the military community.
He was never fit to serve anyway. The only back he would have had was his own.

"The only official document we've seen regarding Obama's past is a school registration form from Indonesia which says he's an Indonesian citizen named Barry Soetoro, the son of Lolo Soetoro."

Rolling on the floor laughing my silly butt off. Man,you have been had. Do not repeat too amny of those other unconfirmed accusations about Obama. Some of them are gotchas also.

http://amfoi.wordpress.com/

"But to get back on track, what really impresses me is that despite the multiple indications of the non-existence of the “Americans for Freedom of Information” group in gold-standard fact-check sites all over the web, for months on end reminding people that any claims by the “Americans for Freedom of Information” are utterly bogus and without a shred of documented evidence whatsoever, there are still some chumps out there taken in by all this!

Take “Walks With Whispers,” a fella who posts over at the fishingbuddy.com website. Why, he just cut and pasted the classic made-up hoax that pretends to be from the Associated Press and makes up the fake group “Americans for Freedom of Information” out of thin air… all to make the false claim that Barack Obama somehow registered at Occidental College as an Indonesian citizen.

Ya big silly, Walksy, ya gotta check these facts on Google if ya don’t want to look like a chump. Unfortunately, if ya looks like a chump and ya cuts and pastes like a chump, chances are you’re a chump."

As I have read this thread, there are some predominant questions about "Major Cook". He presents himself with counsel and US District Court in Georgia in Class "A" uniform. Would somebody please tell me, is his issue a Civilian Legal issue or a Military Legal issue? It is *not* both! It appears as if, we see the "Major" using his Military Uniform for political purposes. Now, we also see that he has "Volunteered" to go to A'stan, prior to the election. What many people don't realize both McCain and Obama had cases in Federal Court on the status of their citizenship by being "Natural Born". One was Filed 21 Jul 2008, the US District Court of NH. It was summarily dismissed, reason, "Lack of Jurisdiction". The "The Federal Rules of Civil Jurisdiction" establish limits on the Court. This whole issue is out of bounds for the Federal Court System. Many people have tried to go here, but it's off limits to the Federal Court. McCain is a "Citizen by Law" and Obama is a "Citizen by Birth." Therefore, both men were equally eligible to be President of the US.

Greyhawk, in my view, you raised the right question, "Is this a scam?" Now, as I look at the history of this issue, I've seen many say MAJ Cook volunteered to go to A'stan, his choice. He also received benefits by taking this action. Was he aware of the cases in Federal Court, District Court in NH, Hollander vs McCain & RNC on the subject of authenticity of McCain's citizenship. He was born in Panama, not in any American Zone. Then you have the Berg vs Obama in the US District Court of Eastern PA, which raise the question on the authenticity of Obama's citizenship. Both ruled, "Lack of Jurisdiction".

Now, what did MAJ Cook know at the time he volunteered about either of these cases? The same question might be asked of his "attorney". Now, the question we'll never get answered, Did he ever intend to go? Once he got orders, he goes to the US District of GA, the Army withdraws his deployment orders, but he still pursues the case. I figure it doesn't matter who became President, we would have had the same nonsense. My question is this, What was MAJ Cook's motive?