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« Lawmakers Stunned By New Images of Abuse | Main | 9/11 Families »

May 6, 2009

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Revelations

By Greyhawk

So, the Red Cross complains that Obama is just airraiding villages and killing civilians.

Women and children were among dozens of bodies in two villages targeted by airstrikes, the International Committee of the Red Cross reported Wednesday, after sending a team to the district.
Fortunately, the NY Times was able to get in front of this story, publishing an an interview with a "Pakistani logistics tactician for the Taliban" who "showed himself to be knowledgeable of Taliban activities, and the information he provided matched up consistently with that of other sources". Among the shocking revelations, civilian casualties are actually part of the plan:
“The Americans cannot take control of the villages,” he said. “In order to expel us they will have to resort to aerial bombing, and then they will have more civilian casualties.”
Although he admits that the drone attacks are actually the most effective weapon used against Taliban/al Qaeda forces:
The one thing that impressed him were the missile strikes by drones — virtually the only American military presence felt inside Pakistan. “The drones are very effective,” he said, acknowledging that they had thinned the top leadership of Al Qaeda and the Taliban in the area. He said 29 of his friends had been killed in the strikes.
One must conclude that successfully bringing internal and international pressure on the Obama administration to halt the attacks is a significant enemy goal, and the higher the number of civilian dead the more swiftly that goal can be achieved. Obviously, "International Red Cross" reports like the one relayed by the AP in the first link above - regardless of how well intentioned - further this goal. Certainly such reports should never be withheld or concealed, but we're fortunate indeed to have the New York Times explaining this tactic to their readers who can then put the entire discussion in its proper perspective.

I'll resist the urge to condemn them for not acknowledging this back in 2006 when tangible evidence of the use the media tactic first became available and will suppress my personal desire to speculate why they choose to expose rather than play along with Taliban/al Qaeda sources now (certainly something must have changed) and instead welcome what appears to be their first tentative steps to "our side" in the battle.

They could be coming "just in the nick of time".

Continued: Revelations (II)


*****

Recent/related:

Roger Hill Revisited

One step forward...

The Plan for a 'Stan (or two)

The Plan for a 'Stan (or two) Part Two

We Have Met the Enemy

We Have Met the Enemy (II)


Posted by Greyhawk / May 6, 2009 12:44 PM | Permalink

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The lost year from Mudville Gazette on November 23, 2009 10:57 AM

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13 Comments

Hope and change from the NYT.

Are you arguing that the Obama Administration, absent UN authorization and absent Congressional authorization, should conduct a war against people living in Pakistan?

A war in which robots indiscriminately kill both enemy combatants (assuming this is true) and innocent bystanders which include children?

Is that your argument. That Obama should be allowed to kill men, women and children with robots in a country we are not at war with?

wondeerer, now that you mention it as far as I know the United States isn't at war with any country in the world today.

Amazing, isn't it?

You did not answer the question.

Because the question makes no sense.

Actually, that's wrong. To paraphrase a common truism - there are no senseless questions. The lesser known and generally unspoken companion to that is that there are, however, senseless people who ask questions and expect answers. If in this case the questioner is not senseless he must think I am.

Since I have a spare moment I'll explain in generic terms: answering the question "are [unspecified 'you'] arguing [for subject x] to take action z without [A AND B] but limited to [C modified]?" - is pointless, and further compounded in this specific example by a likely disagreement on definitions of terms ("war" for instance). One could respond "no" or even "no, I'm not arguing" - and that answers the question, but there remains a high likelihood the questioner would misconstrue the meaning of the response (one could also argue the answer in fact grants license for him/her to do so).

Asking it in the first place says more about the mentality of the questioner - and likely his/her overestimation thereof. Throwing in "robots" doesn't help.

I urge you to study the works of English author Charles Lutwidge Dodgson for further discussion on this topic.

Ok, I'll ask the question in a way that does make sense:

You seem to be of the opinion that the enemy has a goal of halting attacks by pressuring the Obama administration.

I'm of the opinion that the Obama Administration never got Congressional authorization to make war against the citizens of Pakistan. I'm of the opinion that Obama never went before the United Nations to receive UN approval to attack the citizens of Pakistan.

I'm also of the opinion that it's a war crime to torture people; and I submit that using unmanned Predator drones to fire missiles into areas known to be the home of non-combatant women and children is torture. Those women, and those children are being tortured to death very quickly by Missile-Boarding them.

So, what I'm asking is:

When did Barack Obama get authorization to torture to death non-combatant women and children in the country of Pakistan?

And the answer is: Never.

Barack Obama isn't authorized to conduct a war against the citizen of Pakistan, and he's committing war crimes in the indiscriminate way he's using Predator drones to attack those people.

The next Republican Attorney General might want to start taking notes today about who they're going to haul into the dock to answer for these crimes.

First I must say for the record I expanded my initial comment at 06:32 - it originally read simply "Because the question makes no sense." I mention that because it's likely (given the timing) that wanderer's response was to that brief initial remark.

More shortly.

Wonderer: are you serious here? As in getting huffy over what Obamessiah wants to do? Lie back and enjoy it, my man! Remember, if Bush did it, it was per se wrong. If Obama does it, no problem.

I am almost enjoying the moral free-fall, just to watch the convolutions of the faithful.

"You seem to be of the opinion that the enemy has a goal of halting attacks by pressuring the Obama administration.

"I'm of the opinion that the Obama Administration never got Congressional authorization to make war against the citizens of Pakistan. I'm of the opinion that Obama never went before the United Nations to receive UN approval to attack the citizens of Pakistan."

The opinions expressed above are actually facts.

However, one can argue

a) the definition of "war" in this context (can a nation wage "war" on people, vice another nation?)
and
b) the tacit approval of bodies (governing or otherwise) who offer no opposition to an action

But the overriding point is that civilians aren't the target in Afghanistan, Pakistan, or anywhere else on earth. As I noted above, their deaths serve the enemy's cause. All sides are well aware of this.

I will add that my point is that once (say, prior to November 2008) the NY Times would gleefully make the case you appear to be making here, that the administration was slaughtering women and children without concern or consideration of consequences. Now they seem to be of the opinion that the administration is concerned and considerate when attacking women and children.

But despite reports to the contrary, there's been no fundamental change in strategy, plans or ROE from October to May. Odd, that.

#Greyhawk at May 6, 2009 08:28 PM

No need to speculate. This is the same tactics terrorists from Hamas and Hezbollah used against Israel. As we all know, the media bought the line, hook and sinker. Leftists love terrorists more than Jews, George W Bush and Americans, but less than Obama. They only mentioned this tactic to cover Obama's ass,

"“The Americans cannot take control of the villages,” he said. “In order to expel us they will have to resort to aerial bombing, and then they will have more civilian casualties.”

And when the Americans do bomb, they become murderers, killers of women and children and innocent boys. Does that make you happy? That people will start calling American soldeirs baby killers...and be correct?

Your answers exhibit a moral blindness. You simply will not see. Can you explain, how, exactly, you are better than the terrorists?

"And when the Americans do bomb, they become murderers, killers of women and children and innocent boys. Does that make you happy? That people will start calling American soldeirs baby killers...and be correct?"

No - I believe we should avoid civilian casualties at all cost. But I know of incidents where al Qaeda in Iraq had assaulted villages and were "caught in the act" of slaughtering civilians there. U.S. forces intervened, to include airstrikes. The result was lives saved and a devastating blow to AQI. Arguably none of this would have happened without combat air support - support that obviously would have been denied under any blanket removal of authorization.

Your question over-simplifies the moral question which I recognize as complex: should an airstrike (the definition of which I'm currently not certain you understand - no offense) option be pre-denied an on-the-ground commander? Or, for a fundamental moral argument: if an action could save lives AND result in bad press is it morally wrong to avoid the action? (An accurate but misleading headline regarding the event I cited could have read "U.S. strikes village; dozens slain".)

Leave a comment

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July 19, 2010


Dawn Patrol 07/19/2010
[Greyhawk]

Welcome to the Dawn Patrol, our ongoing roundup of information on war and other topics - from the MilBlogs and other sources around the world.

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Always updating - refresh for updates.

AFGHANISTAN

Prospects for stability in Musa Qala: challenges and possible solutions -- [Bill Ardolino /Long War Journal - in Afghanistan]
Part 3 in a three-part series on Musa Qala. For Part 1, see The checkered history of Musa Qala; for Part 2, see US Marines battle the Taliban for control of Musa Qala.
..."To the west, there are more 'little-t Taliban,' mostly in it for the money and drug smuggling," explains McDowell. "The farther east of the line you go, the more you see 'capital-T Taliban,' the ideologues who are affiliated with the Qetta Shura."
...A third, nebulous category of enemy also exists: violence is often tied to inscrutable local business interests, politics, and simple crime, especially in cases of Afghan-on-Afghan violence.
"Here in the District Center ... it's really strange, it's hard to characterize what is happening," explains H&S Company Commander First Lieutenant Joshua Hartley, who regularly leads patrols through Musa Qala...
Positive factors at present include...

Exploding Culverts -- [Kandahar Diary - in Afghanistan]
The ambush was initiated with a large IED, planted in a road culvert...
The initiation was followed up by sustained and accurate small-arms and RPG fire to the front, middle and rear of the convoy from the high ground on both sides of the MSR. My guards de-bussed and returned fire...

Arbaki -- [Free Range International - in Afghanistan]
It looks like the new boss has convinced President Karzai to reverse his position on using tribal militias. The new name for these soon to be created Arbaki is Local Police Forces (LPF.) This is a plan which has been tried before with minimal success... I'm not sure what is being modified to make this cunning plan more effective than the last time around but I do know this much - the plan is going to fail.

Weather -- [A Major's Perspective - in Afghanistan]
Its hot here right now...but not a hot like you would think...
The wind is something to describe though. Starting in late spring it starts to pickup and everyday around 230PM until Midnight it blows. All of the sand / dust gets picked up by it turning into a swirling maelstorm of junk and dirt.
For the guys in Kandahar and the eastern portions of the country it is different. Kandahar is hot, very hot, reminds me of Iraq hot. The east of the country is hot but also mixed with humidity...

Fête Nationale -- [Field Notes: One Soldier's Perspective - in Afghanistan]
July 14: This morning we had a brief ceremony to recognize and celebrate "Fête Nationale" or French National Day. It is the official national day of France. While it is also known as Bastille Day (anniversary of storming the Bastille in 1789), it actually celebrates the anniversary of the Fête de la Fédération that occurred on 14 July 1790 (one year after the storming of the Bastille)...
This morning's ceremony featured the raising of the French flag over the ISAF Headquarters...

Goodbye "FaST" Food (and good riddance) -- [FaST Surgeon - in Afghanistan]
...I am completely for the elimination of places like BK and Pizza Hut from military installations. Not only in theaters of war, but in ALL military installations. I simply don't believe there is any reason for their existence on our bases / camps / or posts...


IRAQ

On The Iran, Iraq Border -- [J.D. Johannes - in Iraq]
In the 1980s Iran and Iraq fought to a bloody stalemate on a thin strip of desert over access to a waterway, the Shatt al Arab, that had been in dispute since the days of the Ottoman Empire.
The war was a pure fire-power battle resembling the trench warfare of World War I and the set piece charges of the American Civil War.
The tension over the Iran/Iraq border still lingers making border security one of the key missions of US Forces in Iraq.
I spent a day at the Shalamcha Port of Entry, a bustling entry point for Iranian tourists and transhipment point east of Basrah, Iraq...


WAR ON TERROR /TERRORISM

Senators Look For Smoking Gun In BP-Lockerbie Link -- [AP]
...Soon after al-Megrahi's release last year, BP acknowledged that it urged the British government to sign a prisoner transfer agreement with Libya, but stressed it didn't specify his case. It reiterated that stance this week when four U.S. Democratic senators asked the State Department to investigate whether there was a quid pro quo for the Lockerbie bomber's release.
"The evidence here may be circumstantial but if I were a prosecutor, I'd love to take this case to a jury," said New York Sen. Charles Schumer...

No Link Between BP And Lockerbie Release: UK Envoy -- [NPR news blog]
Many people for obvious reasons are more than willing to believe the worst about BP.
So when stories circulated this week that the company had lobbied for Scotland to release convicted Lockerbie bomber Abdelbaset al-Megrahi in order to secure an oil deal with Libya, many BP haters were perfectly ready to believe that.
But the United Kingdom's ambassador to the U.S., Nigel Sheinwald, says BP played no such a role in the al-Megrahi affair.
The envoy explained in an open letter to Sen. John Kerry, chair of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee...

UK's Cameron: Releasing Lockerbie Bomber Was Wrong -- [AP]
"As leader of opposition, I couldn't have been more clear that I thought the decision to release al-Megrahi was completely and utterly wrong," Cameron told the BBC before leaving Tuesday on his first visit as British leader to the United States, where he is expected to face questioning about the case.
In fact, Cameron's political party did more than just condemn the former Libyan intelligence agent's release. In the weeks following, Britain's Conservatives called for an inquiry into whether trade considerations played any role in the decision.
The party has changed tack, however, since taking control in May of Britain's government in a coalition. Cameron's Downing Street office said a government-commissioned inquiry was "not currently under consideration."
Cameron emphasized that the final decision to release al-Megrahi was made by Scotland's government, which holds some limited powers within the United Kingdom, and not by the previous British government headed by Prime Minister Gordon Brown.


U.S. AND OTHER PARTS OF THE WORLD

As Cameron and Obama Meet, BP Will Be Top Issue -- [NY Times]
On the eve of a White House meeting with President Obama, Prime Minister David Cameron on Monday stepped into the furor over BP's lobbying for a prisoner-transfer agreement between Britain and Libya by saying he considered the release of the convicted Lockerbie bomber from a Scottish prison last year to be "completely and utterly wrong."
Ten weeks after taking office, Mr. Cameron is making his first visit to the United States as prime minister. He and Mr. Obama have a ledger of issues to discuss, including the Cameron government's decision to set an end date of 2015 for Britain's combat role in Afghanistan...

Afghanistan tops agenda for British PM's visit -- [Washington Times]
The White House on Monday said the war in Afghanistan is "first and foremost" on the agenda for Prime Minister David Cameron's first Washington visit with President Obama, but the new British leader will be walking a political tightrope over the release of the Lockerbie bomber amid questions from Congress about whether BP had a role in the decision.
The meeting Tuesday comes as operations in Afghanistan are at a pivotal point...


WELCOME HOME

Homecoming -- [Rajiv Srinivasan - home from Afghanistan]
..."All 5th Brigade Personnel bound for Joint-Base Lewis-McChord, we'll be boarding you at Gate 4 in five minutes," announced an airline representative over the intercom. A smile broke across my face. I was heading home. I was almost done. This war was over for me, and I could wash my hands of it for at least a year or two. I jumped up from my seat, gave one last grin at the run way, knowing I'd be on it in just a few moments.
"Hey Raj," called out my friend James, a West Point classmate in the brigade.
"What's going on brother?! Ready to kick this pig?!" I slapped him enthusiastically on the back.
"Rajiv...something's happened." James voice became quiet...


STRATEGY & TACTICS

ISAF, SCR Address Military ROE and Tactical Directives -- [ISAF]
"Our rules of engagement are solid, and they have not changed," said Blotz. "They are based on international law and are standardized across 47 nations, and describe the circumstances and limitations under which forces will begin or continue to engage in combat. This defines the"right and left limits" of what we will allow our forces to do as they fight."
...He added that the tactical directives tell troops what they should do while the rules of engagement instruct them what they can do. In an example he describes the difference between the two directives.
"If our troops are fired upon from a compound, under the laws of armed conflict...international law, that compound is a legal target," the general said. "However, the current tactical directive will ask our troops to consider the minimal level of force that's required to handle the situation."
...At the moment, the application of the current tactical directive is being reviewed to ensure it is consistently being used across our force.
"It is important to remember that [ISAF] military forces always retain the right to self defense, if commanders believe their forces are in danger they are required to make decisions to protect themselves," said Blotz..


SCIENCE & TECHNOLOGY

Raytheon's pain gun finally gets deployed in Afghanistan (update: recalled) -- [Engadget]
t's been six long years since we first got wind of the Pentagon's Active Denial System, and four since it was slated to control riots in Iraq, but though we've seen reporters zapped by the device once or twice, it seems the Air Force-approved pain gun is only now entering service in Afghanistan...
Update: Sorry folks, false alarm -- a Air Force spokesperson just informed us that though the pain gun was indeed sent to Afghanistan, it's now being returned to the US without ever seeing use.


Pain Ray Recalled From Afghanistan -- [Noah Shachtman/Danger Room]
...The system's tactical advantages are far outweighed by the strategically-massive propaganda boost that the pain ray would've given the Taliban.

The Active Denial System: the weapon that's a hot topic -- [The Telegraph (UK)]
In 2007, with the situation in Iraq at its most volatile since the invasion, US forces requested the presence of the ADS. It was never sent. Indeed, The Daily Telegraph has learnt that it has now been recalled from Afghanistan, without being fired in anger...
...Other problems come from the limitations of the device itself. Rain, snow and fog hamper its effectiveness, and it can be blocked by highly reflective materials such as aluminium foil...
Yet even if the ADS falls short, the ongoing pressure to keep the civilian body count to a minimum has made the development of similar weapons a top priority for Western forces. The ADS is only one of a raft of new non-lethal measures the US has been developing, under varying levels of secrecy...

World's Fastest Helicopter Boosts Battle Against Insurgents -- [ISAF]
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...The aircraft's value in the battle against insurgents lies in its versatile performance. The Lynx crews can track insurgent movements and watch over vulnerable areas with its sophisticated surveillance camera. This "overwatch" capability helps in the protection of the massive convoys used to re-supply front line troops in the forward operating bases.
The convoys can be vulnerable to attack as they track across vast swathes of desert from base to base but with the Lynx and its formidable weapons systems circling above, the insurgents stay away...




POLITICS

Is it time for a real GI Jane? -- [CNN]


HUMOR/SATIRE

-- []


(Need more? Dawn Patrols Archives are here.)



, , , , , , , ,


Posted 2:51 PM | Permalink | Comments (0) | Trackbacks (0)


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The Mudville Gazette is the on-line voice of an American warrior and his wife who stands by him. They prefer to see peaceful change render force of arms unnecessary. Until that day they stand fast with those who struggle for freedom, strike for reason, and pray for a better tomorrow.
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  • Greyhawk: "And when the Americans do bomb, they become murderers, killers read more
  • Xiaoding: "“The Americans cannot take control of the villages,” he said. read more
  • Wallace: #Greyhawk at May 6, 2009 08:28 PM No need to read more
  • Greyhawk: I will add that my point is that once (say, read more
  • Greyhawk: "You seem to be of the opinion that the enemy read more
  • oMan: Wonderer: are you serious here? As in getting huffy over read more
  • Greyhawk: First I must say for the record I expanded my read more
  • wonderer: Ok, I'll ask the question in a way that does read more
  • Greyhawk: Because the question makes no sense. Actually, that's wrong. To read more
  • Xiaoding: You did not answer the question. read more

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The Mudville Gazette is written and produced by Greyhawk. Unless otherwise credited, the opinions expressed are those of the author, and nothing here is to be taken as representing the official position of or endorsement by the United States Department of Defense or any of its subordinate components. Furthermore, I will occasionally use satire or parody herein. The bottom line: it's my house.

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