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« Open Post | Main | The Fourth Rail On In Iraq »

October 26, 2005

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Permission to Fire

By Greyhawk

Rofa Six points us to a disturbing quote from Stars and Stripes:

In one case last week, Lt. Col. Roger Cloutier called an Army lawyer at nearby FOB Warhorse to ask whether a man seen behaving suspiciously after curfew should be shot.

The sniper posted near the road retained radio contact with the commander through his platoon leader and tried to keep the suspicious man in his sites while the shot was approved.

The Army lawyer ultimately approved the shot, but the process took nearly 10 minutes and by that time the insurgent had disappeared from site.

Seems like arming the lawyers and posting them at the wall would be a big time saver.

Probably illegal though.

And here's a blast from the past.


Posted by Greyhawk / October 26, 2005 4:22 PM | Permalink

9 Comments

Post a ROE (that has been JAG approved) then STICK TO IT. A soldier shouldn't be calling up to higher for permission to shoot. Freaking ridiculous....

I guess the Stars and Stripes uses an alternate spelling for "sights" or the terminology has changed from when I used to shoot using a "sight picture."

(The above is an example of lawyer sniping. Sort of like a snark, but much less effective. And to inflict lawyer sniping on the enemy would be "cruel and unusual") regardless of the site or sight picture)

Interesting. A legal distinction is being made between a situation where a soldier can see a target with his own eyes, and a situation where a target is seen by an UAV. Presumably a case of there not yet being a legally agreed ROE for the latter. The law hasn't caught up with the technology, which is often the case in the civilian world. Yeah, ridiculous in a combat situation.

Since I was a wee-LT Legal O I have thought one of the worst things we do is have non-warfare qualified officers as JAGs. From NJP to this situation, you just have to ask, (for a Navy type) when they do something stupid, "Have you ever been deployed?" I watched great officers from surface, submarine, and aviation who left active duty for law school. Many of them tried to take the LEP (legal education program), but were denied. They went on to be civilian lawyers while the Navy recruited non-prior service post-law school types to be JAGs. No sense to me.

A Army JAG that had been an infantry JO would not have taken 10 minutes.

Rumor has it that the first call the COMMIDEASTFOR Staff Watch Officer made on July 3, 1988 in response to the Iranian Airbus downing by USS VINCENNES was to the staf JAG and not the Admiral...he was the recipient of the second call....

As for CDR S's comments above, I concur...same view of the JAG corps...So much for reality with the TV series "JAG."

Army Nurse Boy;

I concur, but then you have to figure the ROE written by the JAG's are much like the legalese the rest of us take ten minutes to figure out if we meet the criteria...been there, done that for a 6 month deployment that involved the adventure north of Libya in 1986....

Might be easier to just shoot the lawyers to begin with. I guess some things never change; I heard a similar story about the crew of a Nighthawk chopper getting belated permission to waste 3 VC on the beach at Cam Ranh Bay back in '72. By the time they got permission the VC had cleared the beach into a rocky area with lots of good places to hide.

From one who plans to become JAG lawyer... WHY does it take 10 minutes to decide if it's "okay" to kill a would-be terrorist? We are not talking about going through the airports in America arresting every person that appears to possibly be of Middle East descent... we are talking about WAR. The snipers are doing a lot more good than the lawyers, in my perspective. That's for sure.

However, I think we should all be more fair to the JAG lawyers. I choose NOT to be a civilian lawyer (aka ambulanc chaser); I want to be in JAG for the benefit of the military... I am sure there are others like that. They can't all be bad.

I would have to agree with CDR S. I am sure that prior service makes a difference.

Insanity, that is what Liberalism and the democrats have turned this war in Iraq. We have handicapped our soldiers by having to gain permission from a "lawyer" to take out a suspected terrorist. This is a "war", we haven't learned a damn thing from Vietnam. Maybe President Bush's poll numbers would skyrocket if fought this war to win it? He should start by threatening Syria and Iran with attack if they don't stop trying to destabilize Iraq.

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November 26, 2010


America@war
[Greyhawk]
I think anyone who's ever pondered the "comment" option - once only available on blogs and bulletin boards, now ubiquitous on almost any web site - will appreciate this:
The so-called faculty of writing is not so much a faculty of writing as it is a faculty of thinking. When a man says, "I have an idea but I can't express it"; that man hasn't an idea but merely a vague feeling. If a man has a feeling of that kind, and will sit down for a half an hour and persistently try to put into writing what he feels, the probabilities are at least 90 percent that he will either be able to record it, or else realize that he has no idea at all. In either case, he will do himself a benefit.

That's wisdom from the past, captured for posterity at the US Naval Institute, shared via the web on the institute's 137th anniversary.

From their about page:

The Naval Institute shall remain

INDEPENDENT - A non-profit member association, with no government support, that does not lobby for special interests;

NON-PARTISAN - An independent, professional military association with a mission, goals and objectives that transcend political affiliations; and shall encourage

IDEAS - Through its respected journals Proceedings and Naval History, its conferences, its books and its online content, in support of those who serve.

"The Naval Institute has three core activities," among them, History and Preservation:

The Naval Institute also has recently introduced Americans at War, a living history of Americans at war in their own words and from their own experiences. These 90-second vignettes convey powerful stories of inspiration, pride, and patriotism.

Take a look at the collection, and you'll see it's not limited to accounts from those who served on ships at sea, members of the other branches are well-represented.

I'm fortunate to have met USNI's Mary Ripley, she's responsible for the institute's oral history program (and she's the daughter of the late John Ripley, whose story is told here). She also deserves much credit for their blog. ("We're not the Navy nor any government agency. Blog and comment freely.") We met at a milblog conference - Mary knew (and I would come to realize) that milbloggers are the 21st-century version of exactly what the US Naval Institute is all about. Once that light bulb came on in my head, I mentioned a vague idea for a project to her - milblogs as the 21st century oral history that they are.

"Put that in writing," she said (of course - see first paragraph above!) - and here's part of the result.

Shortly after the first tent was pitched by the American military in Iraq a wire was connected to a computer therein, and the internet was available to a generation of Americans at war - many of whom had grown up online. From that point on, at any given moment, somewhere in Iraq a Soldier, Sailor, Airman or Marine was at a keyboard sharing the events of his or her day with the folks back home. While most would simply fire off an email, others took advantage of the (then) relatively new online blogging platforms to post their thoughts and experiences for the entire world to see. The milblog was born - and from that moment to this stories detailing everything from the most mundane aspects of camp life to intense combat action (often described within hours of the event) have been available on the web...

And et cetera - but since you're reading this on a milblog, you probably knew that. And you know that milblogs aren't just blogs written by troops at war, that many friends, family members, and supporters likewise documented their story of America at war online in near-real time, as those stories developed.

The diversity in membership of that group is broad, the one thing we all have in common is the impulse to make sense of the seemingly senseless, and communicate the tale - for each of us that impulse was strong enough to overcome whatever barriers prevent the vast majority of people from doing the same. Everyone at some point has some vague idea they believe should be shared - we were the people who, from some combination of internal and external urging, found and spent those many half hours persistently trying to write it down.

*****

But where will all that be in another 137 years? Or five or ten, for that matter. That's something I've asked myself since at least 2004 - when I wrote this:

Closing Blogs is nothing new. So many site's owners just give up on their own. They come and go, you know, these MilBloggers do. Like any other sort of blogger. Many post in the lonely down hours far from home, spill their guts for the world, then abandon their spots when the tour of duty is up. They have lives again somewhere in the world, and no need to share the details. So it goes.

Many are truly gone - no site left at all. "The page cannot be found." Other blogs remain, like abandoned defensive positions in shifting desert sands.

Membership in the ghost battalion has grown in the years since, and an ever growing majority of those abandoned-but-still-standing sites are vanishing. Have you checked out Lt Smash's site lately? How about Sgt Hook's? If you're a long-time milblog reader you know the first widely-read milblog from Operation Iraq Freedom and the first widely-read milblog from Afghanistan are both gone from the web. If you're a relative newcomer to this world you may never even have heard of them - or the dozens upon dozens of others who carried forth the standard they set down.

If you have a vague notion that something should be done about that, (a notion I've heard expressed more than once...) then you and I and the good folks at the US Naval Institute are in agreement. Preserving the history documented by the milbloggers is just one of the goals of the milblog project, the once-vague idea that we're now making real.

And it's a big idea, if I say so myself - too big to explain in one simple blog post, so stand by for more. Likewise, it's too big a task to be accomplished by just one person. So if you're a milblogger (and exactly what is a milblogger? is a topic for much further discussion on its own) I'm asking for your help. All I'll really need is just a little bit (maybe just one or two of those half hours...) of your time, and your willingness to tell the tale.

We've already made history, it's time to save it.

(More to follow...)




Posted 4:02 PM | Permalink | Comments (0) |

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The Mudville Gazette is the on-line voice of an American warrior and his wife who stands by him. They prefer to see peaceful change render force of arms unnecessary. Until that day they stand fast with those who struggle for freedom, strike for reason, and pray for a better tomorrow.
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  • Peter Minoc: Insanity, that is what Liberalism and the democrats have turned read more
  • Politics of a Patriot: From one who plans to become JAG lawyer... WHY does read more
  • Bill Faith: Might be easier to just shoot the lawyers to begin read more
  • Curt: Army Nurse Boy; I concur, but then you have to read more
  • Curt: Rumor has it that the first call the COMMIDEASTFOR Staff read more
  • CDR Salamander: Since I was a wee-LT Legal O I have thought read more
  • MaryAnn: Interesting. A legal distinction is being made between a situation read more
  • Eagle1: I guess the Stars and Stripes uses an alternate spelling read more
  • armynurseboy: Post a ROE (that has been JAG approved) then STICK read more

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The Mudville Gazette is written and produced by Greyhawk, who recently retired from 24 years of active duty in the US military, but will maintain this disclaimer: Unless otherwise credited, the opinions expressed are those of the author, and nothing here is to be taken as representing the official position of or endorsement by the United States Department of Defense or any of its subordinate components.

Furthermore, I will occasionally use satire or parody herein. The bottom line: it's my house.

I like having visitors to my house. I hope you are entertained. I fight for your right to free speech, and am thrilled when you exercise said rights here. Comments and e-mails are welcome, but all such communication is to be assumed to be 1)the original work of any who initiate said communication and 2)the property of the Mudville Gazette, with free use granted thereto for publication in electronic or written form. If you do NOT wish to have your message posted, write "CONFIDENTIAL" in the subject line of your email.

Original content copyright © 2003 - 2011 by Greyhawk. Fair, not-for-profit use of said material by others is encouraged, as long as acknowledgement and credit is given, to include the url of the original source post. Other arrangements can be made as needed.

Contact: greyhawk at mudvillegazette dot com

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*****

Tending Distant
Fires


Far from hearth and home, watching
Cold alone but not alone
On distant shore and only wanting
Safe return and little more

What tales we'll tell
When that time comes
When tales can be told

When things grim
Seem far away
When other fires go cold

Some distant sunset, vision fading
Memories remain
And tired eyes gaze 'pon folded flags
While distant drums beat their refrain

Saluting fallen friends whose names
And youth will never fade
Here's to those on other shores,
for them live well, the price is paid

- Greyhawk,
Baghdad,
December 2004