Already Declared a Martyr For the Cause

I think that brief review just about sums it all up.

What complete and utter horseshit. I'm one of those who thinks the U.S. is going down to defeat in Iraq, but to say that I wish for this so the Liar-in-Chief's party will lose the November elections is way, way off.

I'd be very happy to be wrong about what I see coming. Happy as a clam. See, if the U.S. goes down to defeat, two things will happen quickly. One is that oil will be costing $100+ per barrel, and that's going to torpedo the American economy. Unlike some of you, I grew up in the 1970s and I vividly recall how bad it got.

The other thing that will happen is that every little dipshit Third World country will see that the U.S. is a paper tiger and can be f***ed with at will. You'd have to be crazy to wish for something like that; anyone who thinks the Mexican border is a problem now hasn't seen the beginning of it if the Liar-in-Chief takes us down to a visible defeat.

Beyond that, a visible defeat would possibly have very serious and maybe catastrophic implications for the value of the dollar. If the dollar collapses, all kinds of things go wrong.

So, no, you idiots, those of us who forecast defeat do not wish it to happen. Other way around. The idea that killing the one insurgent leader is going to clear the skies of Iraq is questionable at best. But if it turns out that way my attitude will be "Whew! Dodged a bullet, thank God."

And speaking of this "victory," which conveniently takes the focus off of U.S. failures in Iraq, the Bush administration has something of a mixed track record when it comes to al-Zarqawi

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4431601

Anyone want to take bets on whether they kill Bin Laden, oh, 'round about October 20th?

Willy, I knew I could count on you to confirm my point.

No comments on the last post.

For a minute there, I thought WW WAS Zarqawi.
(tee hee)

News of the Zarqawi death is big reason to celebrate. And yes, the echelons of the America-hating and Bush-hating Left will do all they can to downplay this. Sad. What must it be like to be a Lefty in the U.S. these days? To hope and pray for failure in Iraq, just so that you can stick a fork in the eye of your political opponents? What kind of empty-headed political bullsh** must a person subscribe to in order to wish anarchy and chaos on an entire country (Iraq) and death and disgrace for your own military (U.S. troops) so that you can smugly decry the guy in charge (Bush) and the party that spawned him (Republicans)?

I have a great idea!

Let's have them play "Hail To The Chief" at Zarqawi's funeral....then they can bury him in the basement of the IRAQ HILTON !!!!!

Lets seperate his head from his body, put it in a box, and bury it apart from his body. Or burn it. Maybe then he won't be accepted in Alla's heaven.

Oops! Thats ALLAH"S heaven.

Like I say, it might be reason to celebrate but we don't know that yet. After all, was Saddam's downfall reason to celebrate? Sure, for a little while it was. And then Iraq went straight down the toilet because of the Bush administration's utter mismanagement of the war.

You overestimate the importance of one man. We've seen time and again in Iraq that the insurgents can lose this guy or that guy without a whole lot of impact. It would be great if al-Zarqawi's death caused Iraq to calm down, but I won't hold my breath.

Which leads me to an idea. A really good idea, in fact. Hey Greyhawk, how about if you and your amen chorus will collectively hold your breath? Or you afraid of losing what remains of your brain matter in the process?

WW,
Even you have to admit it's good news right?

So that means for the first time ever, you agree with everyone on this site.

How's it feel to be a Bushbot...

Personnally, I think this might have some effects in the long term. Admittedly, the Al-Q portion of the insurgency is small, but I think they are the most detrimental. This means that once we finish standing the Iraqi Army/Police up and start to withdrawl, the Sunni insurgents might fade back into society as they primarily hate us. Without a strong A-Q leadership continuing to push for secretarian war, the violence might end. Notice I said that we withdrawl when the job is done and the Iraqi Government says they are ready.
That would mean, horror of horrors for you WW, that Iraq succeeded.
Great news either way.

Which leads me to an idea. A really good idea, in fact. Hey Greyhawk, how about if you and your amen chorus will collectively hold your breath?

Looks like you're agreeing with President George W. Bush here.

As I said - and if you read it you prove my point - you folks who feed at the toilets on the left wing information sewer must delude yourselves into believing this is something only you understand.

Willy, I swear that's why I've always thought you were in the employ of Karl Rove.

It's not "admitting" anything to say it's good news. Yes, it's good news. How good is another issue. Time will tell. It's better that he be dead than alive; I'm only saying that I don't know how much difference it makes.

On a truly non-political note, I find the following really interesting:

GAZA (Reuters) - The ruling Palestinian faction Hamas on Thursday deplored the killing by U.S. warplanes of the al Qaeda leader in Iraq Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, describing him as a casualty of a crusade against Arabs and Muslims.

Hamas, branded as a terrorist group by the United States and the European Union and shunned by the West since winning office in the Palestinian government in March, had distanced itself in the past from violence abroad blamed on al Qaeda.

But in a statement faxed to Reuters after Zarqawi was killed in a U.S. air strike north of Baghdad on Wednesday, Hamas said it mourned the Jordanian-born insurgent as a "martyr of the (Muslim Arab) nation".

"With hearts full of faith, Hamas commends brother-fighter Abu Musab ... who was martyred at the hands of the savage crusade campaign which targets the Arab homeland, starting in Iraq," the statement said.

Why is it so interesting? Because al-Qaeda is a creature of the Sunnis. It has declared the Shia its enemies, just as it had been the enemy of Saddam's Baathists. Hamas is essentially Iran's tool, hence a Shia force.

It would be interesting to read dispassionate analysis of that -- obvuiously not on the Milblogosphere, which never analyzed anything except in light of far-right-wing politics -- from someone with real knowledge.

My guess (and it's only that) is that Hamas sees itself as "resistance" and, at least for a microsecond is willing to tip its hat to another "resistance" entity even if that entity is otherwise an enemy. Sort of like the U.S.-Soviet alliance from '42-'45?

Now Greyhawk and other assorted children, it's just an observation and question. Nothing else.

Ain't it good to know that Republicans believe that partisanship stops at the water's edge?

http://w3t.org/u/r64

Looks like the beat goes on. Tell me: Did putting Al Capone in jail kill off the mafia?

http://w3t.org/u/r65

As news of Mr. Zarqawi's death settled into homes across the country, Iraqis in the country's most dangerous areas wondered aloud at lunch tables and in hot afternoon living rooms what, if anything, about their lives would change. A relentless stream of killings and kidnappings has choked off life for many here recently, plunging portions of the country into chaos, and the death of Mr. Zarqawi, while welcome, was not likely to stop it.

The painful, familiar beat resumed just two hours after the announcement of Mr. Zarqawi's death when five young women waiting outside a university were gunned down in a drive-by shooting, a witness said. Four bombs killed as many as 30 people in largely Shiite areas of Baghdad, The Associated Press reported.

The skepticism springs from how Iraqis see the basic trends of violence here. Much of the killing, they say, is driven by a poisonous mix of economics and lawlessness. Criminal gangs kill for money with virtual impunity, as the state looks helplessly on. Al Qaeda takes advantage of those conditions, Iraqis said, but does not create them.

"Zarqawi is part of a story and this story will not end when he is finished," said Dhia Majid, a professor at a university in Baghdad, whose brother, a pediatrician, and his wife, a pharmacist, were shot dead in western Baghdad last summer.

"It's not Iraq, it's a slaughterhouse."

Sounds like WW missed his naptime again, and is cranky...

Willy,

Since you want us to win so badly, it is so good to see you cheering for the home team for once. How about a "thanks, Marines" for their efforts? Or a "good one, George" since he finally did something right? Or maybe even, "damn I'm glad that SOB is dead" (Zarqawi, not Bush, Willy)?

[hand to ear, listening]....... {crickets chirping}

Nothing heard.

That's right. I forgot you can't cheer the Marines because they are baby killers. And you can't cheer Bush because he's the "Liar in Chief". And you can't say you're glad Zarqawi is dead because you need him alive to prove the other two parties are evil -- in the extreme, and that his antics are all Bush's fault.

It really sucks to be you right now doesn't it? Or is that just an everyday occurrence?

Subsunk, Out.

Frankly, given that the White House has been obsessed with the guy for a year and a half and has announced his deaths more times than anyone can count, my inclination is to say:

Okay, fine, that's good. But what took you so long? And does it really matter?

Come on, subby, our guys got one dude after how long? The very same day, the insurgents killed 25 people and kidnapped another 5. Could be off a little bit on the numbers, but that's about the size of it.

So why am I supposed to be jumping up 'n down, again?

So we can see what a pig on a bungie cord looks like? So we can watch Jello wiggle? So we can see what a bouncing boob is without the Man Show?Because I'd get a laugh out of it? Is this a trick question?

Subsunk

Willy suffers from magical government syndrome. The one where Joe Stalin really was making the lives of Ukranians better(rather than starving 10's of millions).

Running a government is just plain hard, complicated work. It is limited by the realities of humanity.

Anyone who falls short of his definition of "Good", is by his definition evil, rather than a flawed human, just as he is, and I am, and everyone else on the planet.

Dad,

Yes, sir. You are 100% correct. It IS tiring to wrestle with the pig so often. And I certainly am above average capacity in the fallible column. I think Willy believes in Star Trek so much, he thinks every organization runs just the way Hollywood imagines it would run. Or like the fairy tales he makes up about nefarious and evil forces lurking throughout the government under a Republican administration which suddenly and magically disappear the second a Dhimmicrat is elected President, despite the fact that over 95% of the people in government do not change jobs by elections. A bureaucrat does his job for whomever is the boss, and it has nothing to do with who sleeps at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue.

The thing I learned while working in the Pentagon, and have now had reinforced into me with cold steel and the wide open eyes of 9-11 is that good people, even the best of people, make mistakes. Whether they missed the intel, or turned right when they should have turned left, or dropped a weapon where they had limited intel and killed someone by accident, they didn't get up in the morning, look in the mirror and tell themselves they were going to do their best to deliberately screw things up today. Death and Tragedy follow all of us waiting for us to make a mistake. Some days we are the windshield, and some days we are the bug. But we all just try not to screw things up so bad that some innocent or loyal person gets killed. Just the ass***** who desperately need it. ('Hawk told me to watch my language).

So when Willy makes claims that the Marine Corps lied deliberately about what happened at Haditha, he has just shown he is ignorant of the fog of war, ignorant of the way Life works, and ignorant of the nature of Americans compared to terrorists. I kinda feel sorry for him sometimes because he will never know the difficult and terrible sacrifices made by better Men so he can keep his worthless, easy and convenient life.

I'm sure your son knows better than most of us how hard it is to truly change the world. But I also bet it doesn't stop him from trying.

And that is the difference between Willy and Real Men.

God Bless you, sir and your children.

Subsunk

subby, put that drink down and read for a minute.

One doesn't lie by mistake. If you inadvertently make a misstatement, it's not a lie. To be a lie, there must be an intent to mislead. Had the Marine Corps issued only the post-Haditha press release with incorrect information and then moved to correct the record, I wouldn't be using the word "lie" to describe that they did.

But in fact the Marine Corps still hasn't officially corrected that press release that contained the two misstatements, one being that the civilians were killed by a bomb blast and the other being that there was a firefight between the one unit and the civilians in that village.

Now, we know that within a very short period of time, most likely a day or two, the Marine Corps possessed its own photos that contradicted the statements in the press release. And of course, Time also obtained a videotape that did the same thing.

But, like I say, the USMC still hasn't officially corrected that press release. And in January, a USMC spokesliar (sorry but that's what he is) told Time magazine that the reports of murders by marines at Haditha were enemy propaganda. Even when the USMC had its own evidence to the contrary.

To top it off, even when the USMC possessed evidence that the press release was wrong -- and that therefore its own marines had not told the truth to whoever issued the release -- it waited four months to request a criminal investigation. This allowed critical evidence to be destroyed, and killers to coordinate their lies.

Sorry, but that's a whole pack of lies and dereliction of duty. For you to deny it is evidence of your moral depravity. You don't understand that when the U.S. commits torture and massacres and then lies and covers them up, it does itself enormous damage in the world.

See, when the U.S. does that, then the battle merely becomes one set of irregulars (terrorists) against an oppressor's regular army. In a world where more than a billion people live on less than a dollar a day, whose side do you think most people will be on? Ours, or the underdog's? If we have something to offer them, ours. But if it's David vs. Goliath, the little guy is on David's side even if David's a scumbag because after all, so's Goliath. Capiche?

Now back to the Marine Corps. It's always a tough issue as to whether to attribute the actions of a few to the organization at large. Your Liar-in-Chief has been willing to do it with Saddam and Iraq, that's for sure. Would I say that the lies that emanate from marines are the lies of the Marine Corps?

That's something that a fearless investigation would examine. How far up the chain did this go? Who knew about the pictures, and when? Was that information passed along? If not, why not? And so on. There is also the issue of senior leadership. About a year and a half ago, the commander of the 1st Marine Division, James Mattis, got himself videotaped saying that "It's fun to shoot some people."

He specifically mentioned Afghanis. The videotape appeared on TV in San Diego, and was picked up nationally. Some of the other senior military people at the event said they were surprised Mattis would make the remarks.

But the commandant of the USMC said only that Mattis had made a poor choice of words, and added the following:

"Lt. Gen. Mattis is a superb leader and one of the Corps' most courageous and experienced warriors. I remain confident that he will continue to serve this nation with dedication and distinction."

I was really surprised at the time that the USMC didn't crack down harder on Mattis. Put aside any of the usual nutscratching here. This is a leadership issue. People at lower ranks look upward for signals. Mattis's comments were, if nothing else, very badly disciplined. By keeping him on and in fact praising him, the USMC's commandant sent the message that "shooting from the hip" is okay.

Yeah yeah yeah. I know. I'm a naive civilian ignorant of the realities of war, blah blah blah, and especially of the realities of how the Marine Corps fights. If that's true, then I hope someone will go find me some people who had fun on Iwo Jima or Okinawa in 1945. The marine who cleaned the brains of a baby slaughtered at Haditha sees that infant in his dreams. That is reality.

Did the whole Marine Corps lie? No, but I want to know how far it went.

Last note here. I have an old friend who's a retired USMC gunny. This isn't something we've talked about, but we have talked about Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib, which insist on calling torture and he insists on calling abuse. But he doesn't approve of it anymore than I do, and says that ran and file marines wanted to puke when this stuff came out.

It would never happen in the Marine Corps, he said. It's no accident that it was the Army doing this, because they don't have anything close to the level of accountability that we have in the Marine Corps, he told me.

I'd say we are about to find out.

"subby, put that drink down and read for a minute."

"One doesn't lie by mistake. If you inadvertently make a misstatement, it's not a lie. To be a lie, there must be an intent to mislead. Had the Marine Corps issued only the post-Haditha press release with incorrect information and then moved to correct the record, I wouldn't be using the word "lie" to describe that they did."

"But in fact the Marine Corps still hasn't officially corrected that press release that contained the two misstatements, one being that the civilians were killed by a bomb blast and the other being that there was a firefight between the one unit and the civilians in that village."

Well, Willy, I'm glad to see you recognize a mistake as a mistake. You have provided zero proof that the USMC "intended to mislead". (Come to think of it, you also have no proof the Bush administration ever "intended to mislead" either).

Since I would hate for the USMC to make another mistake I vote you and I wait until the investigation is over before passing judgment on Marines who are innocent until proven guilty. Since you have already tried, convicted, sentenced and executed them in your own mind, however, I am content to wait patiently alone for the Truth to come out first and then pass judgement. (After all, you are a legend in your own mind. You've obviously written all about it on your own blog since you seem to be very prolific at writing propaganda for the Soviet Union.... I mean the Dhimmicrat Party. Witness all the useless and uncorroborated links you keep posting here.)

And if perchance the investigation shows this is terrorist propaganda I expect you to be a man and come back here and fully apologize to everyone on this forum for being an ass****. Since I know you won't, I won't hold my breath.

But if we are correct don't ever come to my town and expect me to listen to your ranting ever again. If you were on fire I wouldn't cross the street to piss on you. If you are correct, then I shall continue to ignore you because you haven't proven anything, by then the Marine Corps will have proven it.

Have a nice day, twit. Your zipper is down, your ignorance is flapping in the breeze and it has shown itself to be a small threat.

Subsunk

You have provided zero proof that the USMC "intended to mislead". (Come to think of it, you also have no proof the Bush administration ever "intended to mislead" either).

Intent to mislead is rarely proven in the sense of someone coming straight out and saying they intended to mislead. More often, it's inferred. The law allows for this by saying that you can be considered to have intentionally misled if a reasonable person could conclude, in light of circumstances, that you should have known the truth but didn't tell it.

Yes, we can argue about that. I would say that an objective observer would conclude that marines lied. They might exonerate whoever drafted the first press release, but that's about all. Within a very short period of time, enough facts were known to a) cancel the initial press release, and, b) commence an investigation.

The USMC spokesliar's response to Time inquiry was a flat-out, blatant lie. Whose lie is a good question. The spokesliar may well have been nothing more than a transmission belt, in which case I'd revise the description to spokesrobot, but someone lied at that stage, too.

Since I would hate for the USMC to make another mistake I vote you and I wait until the investigation is over before passing judgment on Marines who are innocent until proven guilty.

Something tells me you wrote that while you were, oh, a sheet and a half to the wind? Maybe two sheets? What's that "I vote you" stuff?

Anyway, please cite any instance in which I have passed judgment on any marines. I think you will find that, at every stage, I have said that the specific individuals can't be known and (insofar as the killers themselves are concerned) may never be known.

That was the object of the coverup to begin with: To make it impossible to conclusively identify the killers, in hopes that the murderous nature of the deaths could be concealed.

And if perchance the investigation shows this is terrorist propaganda I expect you to be a man and come back here and fully apologize to everyone on this forum for being an ass****. Since I know you won't, I won't hold my breath. ...

If you are correct, then I shall continue to ignore you because you haven't proven anything, by then the Marine Corps will have proven it.

You know what? I give you credit for your honesty in a certain sense. You freely admit in this thread that you couldn't possibly care less about what's true, and that you're merely an exposed nerve ending. Thanks subby. You've been more informative than you know.

"You know what? I give you credit for your honesty in a certain sense. You freely admit in this thread that you couldn't possibly care less about what's true, and that you're merely an exposed nerve ending. Thanks subby. You've been more informative than you know."

Posted by WW at June 9, 2006 04:55 AM

Actually, no. I just freely admit that I couldn't care less about what YOU think. Because I do care about what's true, and there isn't a lie you haven't told us here that comes close to what the Truth is. But you wouldn't recognize the Truth if it hit you in the ass with a bass fiddle.

Adios, boy. I'm off to bed now. Us nutscratching, drunk, retired, old, ugly farts need our sleep to keep up with you pudnockers who know everything. So pound away spanking your mental monkey all night. Just don't leave a mess.

Subsunk

Just don't leave a mess.

At least I still have the choice, old man.

I was going to say something but after going sort of brain numb skimming dub-dub's pontifications I've forgotten what it was. I think it was even somewhat nice to dub-dub... oh, yeah...

Glad you don't want us to lose in Iraq.

I'll bet when you go to ball games you sit behind the bench and tell the home team how bad they're going to lose, too.

The point is, you *ARE* cheering for the other team when you declare our team the loser. And while you claim you'd *like* us to win, because it would be a bad thing if we lost, you're doing absolutely nothing to help. If you can't even cheer for the home team, why do you *insist* on cheering for our enemies? You say you want us to win, but your actions prove the lie.

Is it just a superiority thing? Those idiot soldiers think they can win and you just can't stand that they can't see what is so clear to you, Oh, enlightened one?

What is actually served by your doom saying prophecies? I mean, when Jonah went to Nineveh the purpose was to give them the opportunity to repent. What do you hope to accomplish?

Something significant happened today. Zarqawi, his aids and his spies were killed. 17... seventeen... known AQ locations were raided. Three important government posts were filled. It's time for a party. Parties are good things. A war is fought primarily inside people's minds, winning or losing can hinge on mental attitudes like determination and will to prevail. Celebrating victories, large or small, isn't an indulgence, it's a military virtue.

It doesn't make you smarter than other people to insist on wallowing in the negatives all the time. It makes you myopic.

My teen-goth daughter made an announcement the other day, "I've had an epiphany," she said. "I've decided that I'm going to be happy. It's more pleasant than being dark all the time and better yet, when you smile people wonder what you're up to." I thought that was insightful. Being gloomy all the time is some people's idea being smart and superior to all those stupid people who don't comprehend that life sucks. My daughter grew out of it at the age of 13.

How old are you?

Willy/Karl/whoever you are
Slow down, just one or two comments confirming everything I said in the original post will do - if you do 15 more, people will start to catch on.

But then again "they really can't help themselves" was one of my points anyway. Never mind, carry on.

[Deleted - personal attacks]

you're doing absolutely nothing to help. If you can't even cheer for the home team, why do you *insist* on cheering for our enemies? You say you want us to win, but your actions prove the lie.

Au contraire! I pay one-third of my income every year to the government, about 25-30% of which goes to "help." And what to you do, Julie? Put a yellow ribbon sticker on your car and stand out in the street waving pom-poms and cheering for "the troops?"

"Just don't leave a mess."

'At least I still have the choice, old man.'

- Uh huh. As if anyone who has ever had the misfortune to read your tripe here, or at any other site you've clouded up and er,... rained all over, would believe THAT.

[b]Au contraire! I pay one-third of my income every year to the government, about 25-30% of which goes to "help." And what to you do, Julie? Put a yellow ribbon sticker on your car and stand out in the street waving pom-poms and cheering for "the troops?"[/b]

I assume she paid her 25-30% also. So I'd say the yellow ribbon sticker and waving pom-poms in the street is a one-up on you!

So, you are now deleting "personal attacks?" Wow, it will make this site less interesting but what the hell. Now will you only delete so-called personal attacks from the left at the right, or will you do this universally?

If you do it universally, it's one thing. If you do it selectively, then all you've done is delivered a sort of backhanded compliment, i.e., my "attacks" being effective enough that they must be deleted, compared with wingnut attacks being cheesy and stupid enough to remain standing.

Your serve.

Z man is gone but.....

we need to kill more of them so,

BRING IT ON. Who else wants an express to Allah? Free martyrdom here, please fax us your location, immediate martyrdoom, guaranteed courtesy of the American infidels. Pre-paid, free, come on, get it while it lasts!!

"So, you are now deleting "personal attacks?" Wow, it will make this site less interesting but what the hell. Now will you only delete so-called personal attacks from the left at the right, or will you do this universally?"

"If you do it universally, it's one thing. If you do it selectively, then all you've done is delivered a sort of backhanded compliment, i.e., my "attacks" being effective enough that they must be deleted, compared with wingnut attacks being cheesy and stupid enough to remain standing."

"Your serve."

Posted by WW at June 9, 2006 05:08 PM

"Just don't leave a mess."

'At least I still have the choice, old man.'

Posted by WW at June 9, 2006 05:13 AM

Willy, pray tell what effect have you had? So far all you've accomplished is taking up space in the comments section, and providing dickless old drunk nutscratching Me a whale of a good time.

Glad to know you are of such rapier wit that we are all disarmed by your attacks and rendered "cheesy" by your rhetoric. Of course, all that and a dollar fifty will get you a cup of coffee in Vegas.

Drive on Willy, you nimrod. We love to see you flash your ass and your ignorance over here, but we'd prefer you give some other folks from your side the opportunity to comment as well. Otherwise it merely becomes a "Willy echo chamber" instead of a "so-called milblog".

Subsunk

This reminds me of Neo NeoCon's problem right now. It looks like we're facing another Tet Offensive, except the internet version.

Maybe it is just subjective, but I don't recall similar behavior from commentators on the blogs that I read, just a few months ago. Sure, they disagreed and went crazy, but they weren't so obviously agent provocateurs either.