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 Greetings! You are reading an article from The Mudville Gazette. To reach the front page, with all the latest news and views, click the logo above or "main" below. Thanks for stopping by! June 3, 2006 IshaqiBy GreyhawkMNF-I SPOKESMAN MAKES STATEMENT ON ISHAQI RAIDDon't confuse this episode with the Haditha incident - although the Haditha allegations may have inspired the claims in this event. We noted that story when it occurred. US troops were accused of executing 11 people, ranging from a 75-year old woman to a 6-month old baby. The US account: According to the U.S. account, the house collapsed because of the heavy fire. When U.S. forces searched the rubble they found one man, the al-Qaeda suspect, alive. He was arrested. They also found a dead man they believed to be connected to al-Qaeda, two dead women and a dead child.And a "local" version of events: The villagers were killed after U.S. troops herded them into a single room of the house, according to a police document obtained by Knight Ridder Newspapers, the parent company of The Inquirer. The soldiers also burned three vehicles, killed the villagers' animals, and blew up the house, the document said.The document was described as a report based on a report filed by local police. Note that current news stories on this event ignore the more unlikely allegations made at the time - handcuffed babies and slaughtered animals. But two days later: BAGHDAD - Iraqi police investigating the deaths of 11 people in the town of Ishaqi after a U.S. military raid last week reported that each of the bodies bore multiple wounds, according to a preliminary report reviewed by Knight Ridder News Service.Current news coverage doesn't mention much of that Iraqi police report either, though the original "document based on a report" is oft-quoted. It's possible the media assumes everyone is already deeply familiar with the particulars in this story. Maybe they feel brevity is important, and that readers don't want to be burdened with too much information. So perhaps it's pure coincidence that all the facts that are omitted in the recent coverage are the ones that demonstrate the difference between this story and Haditha. By the way, even back in that first report: Neighbors who were interviewed agreed that the al-Qaeda in Iraq member was at the house. Posted by Greyhawk / June 3, 2006 1:45 AM | Permalink 2 TrackBacksGreyhawk has the full report Read More Yesterday the BBC claimed they had evidence of a U.S. atrocity committed back in March. BAGHDAD, Iraq (AP) - A military investigation into allegations that U.S. troops intentionally killed Iraqi civilians in a March raid in a village north of Baghdad h... Read More 47 Comments |
November 26, 2010America@war [Greyhawk]
I think anyone who's ever pondered the "comment" option - once only available on blogs and bulletin boards, now ubiquitous on almost any web site - will appreciate this:
The so-called faculty of writing is not so much a faculty of writing as it is a faculty of thinking. When a man says, "I have an idea but I can't express it"; that man hasn't an idea but merely a vague feeling. If a man has a feeling of that kind, and will sit down for a half an hour and persistently try to put into writing what he feels, the probabilities are at least 90 percent that he will either be able to record it, or else realize that he has no idea at all. In either case, he will do himself a benefit. That's wisdom from the past, captured for posterity at the US Naval Institute, shared via the web on the institute's 137th anniversary. From their about page:
"The Naval Institute has three core activities," among them, History and Preservation: The Naval Institute also has recently introduced Americans at War, a living history of Americans at war in their own words and from their own experiences. These 90-second vignettes convey powerful stories of inspiration, pride, and patriotism. Take a look at the collection, and you'll see it's not limited to accounts from those who served on ships at sea, members of the other branches are well-represented. I'm fortunate to have met USNI's Mary Ripley, she's responsible for the institute's oral history program (and she's the daughter of the late John Ripley, whose story is told here). She also deserves much credit for their blog. ("We're not the Navy nor any government agency. Blog and comment freely.") We met at a milblog conference - Mary knew (and I would come to realize) that milbloggers are the 21st-century version of exactly what the US Naval Institute is all about. Once that light bulb came on in my head, I mentioned a vague idea for a project to her - milblogs as the 21st century oral history that they are. "Put that in writing," she said (of course - see first paragraph above!) - and here's part of the result. Shortly after the first tent was pitched by the American military in Iraq a wire was connected to a computer therein, and the internet was available to a generation of Americans at war - many of whom had grown up online. From that point on, at any given moment, somewhere in Iraq a Soldier, Sailor, Airman or Marine was at a keyboard sharing the events of his or her day with the folks back home. While most would simply fire off an email, others took advantage of the (then) relatively new online blogging platforms to post their thoughts and experiences for the entire world to see. The milblog was born - and from that moment to this stories detailing everything from the most mundane aspects of camp life to intense combat action (often described within hours of the event) have been available on the web... And et cetera - but since you're reading this on a milblog, you probably knew that. And you know that milblogs aren't just blogs written by troops at war, that many friends, family members, and supporters likewise documented their story of America at war online in near-real time, as those stories developed. The diversity in membership of that group is broad, the one thing we all have in common is the impulse to make sense of the seemingly senseless, and communicate the tale - for each of us that impulse was strong enough to overcome whatever barriers prevent the vast majority of people from doing the same. Everyone at some point has some vague idea they believe should be shared - we were the people who, from some combination of internal and external urging, found and spent those many half hours persistently trying to write it down. But where will all that be in another 137 years? Or five or ten, for that matter. That's something I've asked myself since at least 2004 - when I wrote this:
Membership in the ghost battalion has grown in the years since, and an ever growing majority of those abandoned-but-still-standing sites are vanishing. Have you checked out Lt Smash's site lately? How about Sgt Hook's? If you're a long-time milblog reader you know the first widely-read milblog from Operation Iraq Freedom and the first widely-read milblog from Afghanistan are both gone from the web. If you're a relative newcomer to this world you may never even have heard of them - or the dozens upon dozens of others who carried forth the standard they set down. If you have a vague notion that something should be done about that, (a notion I've heard expressed more than once...) then you and I and the good folks at the US Naval Institute are in agreement. Preserving the history documented by the milbloggers is just one of the goals of the milblog project, the once-vague idea that we're now making real. And it's a big idea, if I say so myself - too big to explain in one simple blog post, so stand by for more. Likewise, it's too big a task to be accomplished by just one person. So if you're a milblogger (and exactly what is a milblogger? is a topic for much further discussion on its own) I'm asking for your help. All I'll really need is just a little bit (maybe just one or two of those half hours...) of your time, and your willingness to tell the tale. We've already made history, it's time to save it. (More to follow...) Posted 4:02 PM | Permalink |
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The Mudville Gazette is the on-line voice of an American warrior and his wife who stands by him. They prefer to see peaceful change render force of arms unnecessary. Until that day they stand fast with those who struggle for freedom, strike for reason, and pray for a better tomorrow.
 
 
 Furthermore, I will occasionally use satire or parody herein. The bottom line: it's my house. I like having visitors to my house. I hope you are entertained. I fight for your right to free speech, and am thrilled when you exercise said rights here. Comments and e-mails are welcome, but all such communication is to be assumed to be 1)the original work of any who initiate said communication and 2)the property of the Mudville Gazette, with free use granted thereto for publication in electronic or written form. If you do NOT wish to have your message posted, write "CONFIDENTIAL" in the subject line of your email. Original content copyright © 2003 - 2011 by Greyhawk. Fair, not-for-profit use of said material by others is encouraged, as long as acknowledgement and credit is given, to include the url of the original source post. Other arrangements can be made as needed. Contact: greyhawk at mudvillegazette dot com  Tending Distant Far from hearth and home, watching What tales we'll tell When things grim Some distant sunset, vision fading Saluting fallen friends whose names - Greyhawk, Baghdad, December 2004 |
I have no opinion about what happened there, other than to say that the Marine Corps now has a track record of lying about these things. Therefore, it is impossible to take their word for it.
http://w3t.org/u/qdy
Yup, I know how much you'll all go ballistic about what I just wrote. But the fact is that the U.S. mission in Iraq cannot and will not succeed without the support of the local population, the vast majority of which doesn't trust us and wants us to get the hell out of there pronto.
I wonder why that might be.
Nope - I'll just point out these were Soldiers, not Marines.
As for that "Marines are liars" part - one of the first comments I made regarding Haditha was that no one could deny that this was a victory for terrorists, and that's a big part of what I meant.
Your devil's advocate there is showing his tail.
I stand corrected on the branch. The Army has a piss-poor track record when it comes to telling then truth. This is the branch the tortures people and denies doing it, even though their own documents contradict them. 'nuff said. No wonder this whole thing is in an advanced state of collapse.
It's pointy, too, and has rather mottled scales on it.
WW - Just out of curiosity, do you use the same broad brush when talking about Blacks (they're all criminals dontcha know) and Muslims/Islamists (they have a history of violence and mass murder and taqiyya so they are all liars and terrorists)?
Or are you simply anti-military?
But the fact is that the U.S. mission in Iraq cannot and will not succeed without the support of the local population, the vast majority of which doesn't trust us and wants us to get the hell out of there pronto."
That is not what I hear from troops in Iraq. What I hear is that the Iraqis want to live without Coalition forces in their country every day, but they do not want the Coalition forces to leave until they know the ISF can handle the security of the country.
Ahh, I thought you hadn't prejudged WW? When your own statements contradict each other, are you a liar?
Or, to paraphase:
I have no opinion about what WW has to say, other than to say that the WW now has a track record of lying about these things. Therefore, it is impossible to take his word for it.
Michael, don't you understand that WW is an expert in all things Iraq and we should take his overheated assertions for the insightfull wisdom they are?
Also WW, I thought Iraq was a failure because Rummy didn't pay attention to history, not because our noble troops have lying Generals. Before that it was because the troops were overburdened by the mission? Or that Bush lied us into war?
Is it Winds or the Planets that governs your current position?
I thought Iraq was a failure because Rummy didn't pay attention to history, not because our noble troops have lying Generals. Before that it was because the troops were overburdened by the mission? Or that Bush lied us into war?
Yes.
Both the Winds and the Stars, eh? Much is now clear.
Well that explains a lot about the ideology of WW. S/he is part of the "Bush Lied" camp. I now know not to waste my time debating WW.
Back to the matter at hand. *IF* the Haditha story turns out to be true, the point needs to be driven home that this is not a reflection of military orders or a reflection of the actions of the military troops as a whole. Just as we do not say all Blacks are criminals or all Muslims/Islamists are terrorists based on the actions of a few, we need to stress to people that it is wrong to paint the entire military based on the actions of a few. Once again, *IF* what has been alleged turns out to be true.
Here is a question to any military members here. As a civilian, I do not know at all the experience of war. I understand that military members are, as a rule, generally very reserved and humble about their participation in war and about talking about their experiences. However, in light of the fact that a majority of Americans have such an ignorance about military matters in general and war specifically, do you feel that it would be better for military members to not be as quiet about their experiences now? Should war veterans be encouraged to speak up about their experiences in order to give proper perspective instead of average American civilians only getting the media propaganda?
I'm just putting this out there as a general question for anyone in the military or retired to either answer here or maybe make a milblog post on the issue. I think the main reason that many people without any military contact turn on war efforts is because they are so ignorant of military history and military tactics and military efforts in general.
It is obvious that our elected leaders (in both parties) are no longer leaders and are simply politicians who use issues for political gain. The Democrats use bad news from the war effort to smear the war effort while the Republicans do a piss poor job of getting out updates of progress and successes in the war effort and we are left to find all the progress on milblogs and conservative blogs. I think the advent of milblogs is helping people develop a better understanding of all things related to the military. I hope this continues and more people become aware and the info is disseminated to a larger portion of the public.
*IF* the Haditha story turns out to be true, the point needs to be driven home that this is not a reflection of military orders or a reflection of the actions of the military troops as a whole.
How do you know that? What if the Haditha massacre proceeded like dozens before it?
"What if the Haditha massacre proceeded like dozens before it??"
You mean the dozens of massacres of Iraqi civilians executed by the insurgents and terrorists?
Such as these.
Michael, yes but what's your point? Please spell it out, and be concise. Is it by any chance that Arab massacres justify American ones? If not, then what IS your point?
I already asked you numerous times, WW. I want to know if your broad brush of smearing groups of people based on the actions of a few applies to Blacks and Muslims as well and you spend time on Black blogs and Islamic blogs chastising them for their wrongdoings. Or if you are simply anti-American and anti-military.
It's all very well for you to make accusations about the Marine Corps from the safe (relative) anonymity of the Internet, WW. Would you care to discuss them in person with a real live Marine? 'Cause I have a cousin who served in Fallujah and a friend's husband who's in Iraq right now, both Marine sergeants who know a thing or three about RoE and chain-of-command issues--and the Orcs who call themselves holy warriors....
Leave the man alone, Rose. That's the first female attention he's had in years.
Sure, Rose, I'd be happy to discuss them face-to-face with a real, live marine.
Didn't see this posted, so posting it for comment:
Iraq rejects US probe clearing troops of killings
http://today.reuters.com/News/CrisesArticle.aspx?storyId=L03694020
YA know Dubya to much of a good thing will
grow hair on the palm of your hand or make you
go blind, also it looks as though it fried your
brain!!!
Well, well, well ... it looks like Wilson's back.
Notice WW still has not answered my question from 05:02AM. 12 hours later...
Maybe he has been spending time on the Canadian Islamic blogs chastising them over this and this and this. I'm sure the line "Nations which lie to themselves always lose" can easily be changed to "Religions which lie to themselves always lose" and he shall make many friends over there in making them realize they are a "religion of peace" and should not be planning terror attacks against innocent civilians.
I don't hang out at "black blogs," but in fact I have posted on an Islamic blog and have criticized particular elements of Islam that I think are incompatible with my values. Islam leaves a lot to be desired, as does fundamentalism Christianity. I notice that no one ever called Timothy McVeigh what he was: a fundamentalist Christian terrorist.
To me, it's always a red flag when clerics assume temporal power. It took about 1,000 years to contain the power of Christian clerics, and they still agitate to get it back. Islam is a newer faith, and badly needs a Reformation and an Enlightenment of its own.
Really? Timothy McVeigh committed terrorism in the name of Jesus Christ? This doesn't seem to confirm that.
Islamists have been mass murdering in the name of Allah and the Koran since the inception of Islam under Mohammad. There is no reformation that is possible, since, according to the Koran, it is the Word of Allah. No man can change the Word of Allah.
By the way, care to pass along some links of these Islamic sites that you frequent so I can check out your taking down of the Islamists? THAT I would enjoy reading, as well as see the reactions that you recieve there.
I'm not going to get into a detailed discussion of Islam here because it's a dodge from the topic at hand. Nor will I point you to the Islamic site that I posted on. I expect you to use my refusal as a sign that I'm lying about having criticized Islam; so be it.
The site in question has already been spammed by the usual Cro-Magnons, and I don't want to send one more of them over there. See, I am only sharply critical on this site because it's full of vituperative crapola.
The Muslim site in question is not full of vituperative crapola, so I'm going to do my part to keep it that way. But I have been quite critical of Islam there, and in a way that gets to the core of its problems.
As for McVeigh, I see that you're pretty willing to take the word of a criminal when you feel it suits your purposes. I, on the other hand, demand fact and corroboration. I'll accept, for example, pictures delivered by an enemy combatant if the photos can be verified, because evidence is evidence. But not simply their word for it. You also seem to trust Time magazine when it suits your purposes.
I say McVeigh was a fundamentalist Christian terrorist because there is abundant evidence of his visits to a terrorist camp operated by something called The Order, a racist Christian sect in Arkansas. Or, to put it differently, I'd say The Order is as Christian as al-Qaeda is Muslim. Therefore, if Bin Laden, for instance, is a Muslim terrorist, McVeigh is a Christian terrorist.
McVeigh didn't want to come out and say so. Maybe his terrorist network felt it best to not show its face directly to the public. I can only speculate about that; no one knows.
Back to the issue at hand, whether there was a second massacre in the town of Ishaqi. A story from Editor & Publisher, a newspaper industry trade publication, "suggest that the official story may soon unravel."
http://w3t.org/u/qef
I agree with E&P, and not because I hate America and want to believe anything and everything bad about the military. One detail of the official account sticks out -- the U.S. military's claim that the people inside the house in question were killed as a consequence of its demolition.
Witnesses at the scene, including Iraqi police, say that U.S. military forces entered the building while it was still standing and executed the people inside, including a 75-year-old woman and a 6-month-old infant.
There is video taken at the scene by the insurgents and then given to the BBC, showing the bodies of people shot apparently at close range. "Photographs taken just after the raid for the Associated Press and Agence France-Presse, and reports at the time by Reuters and Knight Ridder, also appear to back up the charge of an atrocity."
The U.S. military is sticking to its story, but it has done that before.
Holy cow, Willy - you didn't even read the post you're commenting on, that explained how an Iraqi police report two days later refuted all those allegations - but that fact has been "disappeared" in the current coverage.
The report you cite claims they handcuffed that infant before shooting. Then they killed all the farm animals. Then blew up all the cars, then they called in an air strike to cover it up.
Plausible?
A little far-fetched, but you never know. But, hey, life just ain't fair. Better get used to it.
The Boy Who Cried Wolf
There once was a shepherd boy who was bored as he sat on the hillside watching the village sheep. To amuse himself he took a great breath and sang out, "Wolf! Wolf! The Wolf is chasing the sheep!"
The villagers came running up the hill to help the boy drive the wolf away. But when they arrived at the top of the hill, they found no wolf. The boy laughed at the sight of their angry faces.
"Don't cry 'wolf', shepherd boy," said the villagers, "when there's no wolf!" They went grumbling back down the hill.
Later, the boy sang out again, "Wolf! Wolf! The wolf is chasing the sheep!" To his naughty delight, he watched the villagers run up the hill to help him drive the wolf away.
When the villagers saw no wolf they sternly said, "Save your frightened song for when there is really something wrong! Don't cry 'wolf' when there is NO wolf!"
But the boy just grinned and watched them go grumbling down the hill once more.
Later, he saw a REAL wolf prowling about his flock. Alarmed, he leaped to his feet and sang out as loudly as he could, "Wolf! Wolf!"
But the villagers thought he was trying to fool them again, and so they didn't come.
At sunset, everyone wondered why the shepherd boy hadn't returned to the village with their sheep. They went up the hill to find the boy. They found him weeping.
"There really was a wolf here! The flock has scattered! I cried out, "Wolf!" Why didn't you come?"
An old man tried to comfort the boy as they walked back to the village.
"We'll help you look for the lost sheep in the morning," he said, putting his arm around the youth, "Nobody believes a liar...even when he is telling the truth!"
...and Kolb breaks the irony meter.
I see the Ad Hominem Brigade is reassembling. Or do actually have anything to say, Patrick? Didn't think so.
Apparently the Iraqis are better students of Western Culture than we are. They seem to have read The Boy Who Cried Wolf, which after all is part of what academics would call the "canons" of Western Culture. The Iraqis don't believe a liar, even if he might be telling the truth. Inmagine that.
http://w3t.org/u/qgf
So Haditha is a massacre Bush lied us into war and because the Marines didn't admit it was a massacre earlier. Since the Marines haven't proven Haditha wasn't a massacre, Ishaqi must be a massacre because the Marines lie when they deny massacres (HADITHA PROVED IT!). Since Haditha and Ishaqi were both massaces (And Haditha proves the Marines can't be trused to investigate massacres), that proves there must be dozens more massacres that the Marines have sucessfully supressed. The absence of evidence proves it!
Have I gotten it all right, WW?
Remember what you said about me earlier WW, or do your Ad Hominem Attacks not count?
Deamon, drink and posting don't go together. Now why don't you go sleep it off and we can talk in the morning. Thanks.
Deamon - You've got WW peggged perfectly. That is his "logic" in a nutshell.
Another Ad Hominem attack? Now who's faculties are proving insufficent.
WW,
You're may be lost. That doesn't mean the war is.
Please, tell us how Iraq will improve and flourish we just pick up and leave today? I'd love to hear your theories on how abandoning Iraq will improve the average Iraqi's life...
First off, anyone want to take bets on when Deamon will crawl out of bed? Headache, Deamon? Try three aspirin, a couple of cups of coffee. If it still won't go away, maybe a little bit (only a little, though) of the hair o'the dog that bit you.
Trevor, I don't think the U.S. is going to have much choice in the matter, and no I don't think things will improve as a result of our impending withdrawal. They'll totally disintegrate, and it will be an absolute disaster there, stamped "Made in the U.S.A."
A disaster you and your ilk are clearly salivating for.
Deamon, welcome back! How's your head feel?
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