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 Greetings! You are reading an article from The Mudville Gazette. To reach the front page, with all the latest news and views, click the logo above or "main" below. Thanks for stopping by! February 25, 2006 Meanwhile Back at the FrontBy GreyhawkA weekly look at events in Iraq, and on the home front. This week: an examination of the propaganda war that's ongoing in the wake of the Shrine bombing. With our western reporters absent or holed up in Baghdad hotels, propaganda may be all we're hearing this week - and may in fact be the real battle. The New York Times says More Clashes Shake Iraq; Political Talks Are In Ruins BAGHDAD, Iraq, Feb. 23 — A groundswell of sectarian fury continued to roil Iraq on Thursday after Wednesday's bombing of a major Shiite shrine, leaving at least 138 people dead in the past two days and political negotiations over a new government in ruins.In addition to the death toll, as of Friday, there were published claims that as many as 184 Sunni mosques in Iraq had been attacked in retaliation for the bombing of the shrine of Imams Ali al-Hadi and Al-Hasan al-Askari. But Major General Rick Lynch, spokesman for Multi-National Forces-Iraq, described a somewhat different situation on the ground in the wake of the bombing: It's important that you understand from our perspective the repercussions from that attack yesterday. Candidly, I'm watching the media, I'm listening to discussions about attacks across Iraq that we, the coalition, can't see, we can't confirm. So I'm going to tell you in detail what we've seen since yesterday when the attack occurred until the time of this press conference so that you understand what we have indeed seen and we can confirm.Note the General's candor - he admits that confirmation of the full extent of any damage nationwide can not be accomplished in a matter of hours. He was probably surprised when in the immediate aftermath of the attack on the Shiite shrine accounts of over 100 attacks on Sunni mosques were presented in US media as confirmed facts. In fact, within hours of the shrine bombing, the New York Times had reported that at least 27 Sunni mosques had been attacked in Baghdad alone The Iraqi police, whose ranks include many followers of Shiite militias, largely stood by during the attacks on Sunni mosques on Wednesday and Thursday, as did many Iraqi soldiers.The story would also note that Abdul Aziz al-Hakim, a cleric and the leader of Iraq's largest Shiite political coalition, failed to make any sort of apology for the dozens of attacks on Sunni mosques and imams — a key demand made by Sunni Arab political leaders, who withdrew in protest on Thursday from talks over forming a government. Other Times stories would describe a "wave of killings of Sunni Arabs", and the victim's response: The attacks, mostly by Shiite militiamen, were troubling not only because they resulted in at least 170 deaths across Iraq, but also because they showed how deeply the militias have spread inside government forces. The Iraqi police, commanded by a Shiite political party, stood by as the rampage spread.The Washington Post would claim that 120 mosques had been attacked, adding that "Shiite militias -- including the Mahdi Army, loyal to Shiite cleric Moqtada al-Sadr -- continued to attack Sunni mosques, engaging in drive-by shootings, occupying the buildings and setting them ablaze, or detaining worshipers inside." Time Magazine would caption a photo of the demolished shrine with a claim that "a string of similar attacks to Sunni targets took place across Iraq." And even as a government imposed curfew established calm in the region, reports of the numbers of Sunni mosques attacked would skyrocket. By Friday night published claims would reach as high as "184 Sunni mosques" that "had been damaged, some destroyed". But perhaps as an overdue admission that the claims were becoming a bit outlandish, media reports began to qualify the numbers by actually citing the sources. The Association of Muslim Scholars claim 168 Sunni mosques were attacked, 10 imams were killed and 15 imams were kidnapped.In the US Some 168 Sunni mosques had been attacked around the country, 10 imams killed and 15 abducted since the shrine attack, according to the Sunni Clerical Association of Muslim Scholars.In Australia, a report that The Sunni Association of Muslim Scholars said that since Wednesday, at least 168 Sunni mosques had been attacked, 10 imams killed and 15 abducted.would even explain that "Their claims could not be immediately verified." Other versions of the story would feature the larger number. Reports from Canada and South Africa The main Sunni religious group said 184 Sunni mosques had been damaged, some destroyed; 10 clerics had been killed and 15 abducted.This is, in fact, the modus operandi of the Association of Muslim Scholars - an Iraqi Sunni/Ba'athist group formed in the wake of the 2003 invasion. Their role in the current conflict is to fight the "information war" while others conduct the actual shooting. After any atrocity committed by Sunni "insurgents" in Iraq, the Association immediately insists a similar atrocity has been committed by American or Shi'ite forces. In October, 2004 a suicide car bomber slaughtered three dozen children in Baghdad. The AMS immediately accused American and Iraqi troops of widespread atrocities in Samarra. "The hospital is full of bodies, children are buried in the gardens, and there are bodies filling the streets," said Muhammad Bashar al-Faidhi, one of the members of the group in Baghdad who said he was basing his accusations on witness accounts. It was impossible to independently verify his claims."It was impossible to independently verify" - in fact, reporters actually on the scene told a very different story. But due to the quick work of the "Muslim Scholars" both accounts appeared simultaneously in the press. That same month, an Iraqi Sunni blogger reported Last Monday, while I was in Basra watching TV in the afternoon, Al-Fayhaa channel broadcasted a film they said it was sent to the station via e-mail. I have to say that the credibility of the film is questionable but since I found that no one in the media, whether inside or outside Iraq commented on it, I decided to tell you about it and perhaps we could together find some answers. In November 2004 the BBC reported that the AMS was protesting raids on mosques in Ramadi that had discovered weapons caches: Yesterday coalition forces raided seven mosques in Ramadi, detaining four people and seizing bomb-making materials.Note that unlike American sources the BBC is willing to acknowledge the ties between the AMS and terrorist groups in Iraq. Later the group demanded that Sunnis boycott the January, 2005 elections. (Some would interpret the demands as threats against any potential Sunni voters). After the January elections, they would condemn the new government while demanding to be included in the writing of Iraq's constitution. But within days they would announce their refusal to assist in preparring the constitution as long as the country remained under US occupation. Virtually all subsequent difficulties with developing the constitution could be traced to actions of the group. Additional details of the relationship between the AMS and terrorist groups would be revealed following the kidnapping of Italian "journalist" Giuliana Sgrena Giuliana Sgrena, a 56-year-old reporter for the Communist daily Il Manifesto, was kidnapped near Baghdad University.And now the group claims atrocities against Sunnis in Iraq - stories that shove the actual bombing of the Samarra shrine into the background of the daily news. One might wonder why American media sources decline to offer details of The Association of Muslim Scholars, opting to refer to them as simply "an influential Sunni group" or "group of influential Sunni clerics". In fact, it's worthwhile to question why early reports of the mass destruction of Sunni Mosques didn't even acknowledge the group as the source of the claims. Just prior to the Samarra attacks, Richard Miniter offerred an intriguing suggestion that could explain much of the bias in US media coverage of Iraq: Richard Miniter: Everyone talks about intelligence failures, no one talks about media failures. The media is the people's intelligence service, and it's failing us.In fact, in at least one case last year a CBS-employed stringer was arrested for helping "insurgents" with a car bomb. We noted previously that the role of the AMS in the current conflict is to fight the "information war" while others conduct the actual shooting. That might not be completely accurate. On Saturday two attacks targeted the funeral procession for Atwar Bahjat, the well-known Al Arabiya correspondent killed with two crew members Wednesday while reporting on the violence engulfing Samarra, where the Al-Askariya "Golden" Mosque was bombed.Though we are left to determine for ourselves why this last fact is important to the story. But whodunnit? A roundup of those accused in the bombing of the shrine of Imams Ali al-Hadi and Al-Hasan al-Askari would produce an interesting line up. Following the lead of Iran's President, Vice President, and "Supreme Leader of the Islamic Revolution Ayatollah Seyyed Ali Khamenei, the Iranian News agency reports that Friday "prayers" in Tehran were used to condemn the "agents of the Western arrogance, US leaders, Mossad, CIA and the Zionists" responsible for the mosque bombing in Iraq: Substitute Leader of Tehran's Friday Prayers Ayatollah Mohammad Emami Kashani here condemned the criminal act of bombing the holy shrines of Imam Hadi and Imam Hassan Asgari in Samarra, Iraq and called for unity between all Muslims of the world.Translations of the "prayers" also indicated the Ayatollah claimed that "Iran's nuclear issue, cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad and bombings in Samarra were all part of a Western conspiracy to attack Islam." TEHRAN, Iran (AP) -- Thousands of protesters have rallied in Iran, voicing anger at the U.S., Israel and an attack on a holy Shiite shrine in Iraq.Meanwhile, in Iraq, the Ba'ath party claimed the Badr Corps (an Iranian-backed Shia militia in Iraq), the United States, and Iran were behind the attack. "The Badr Corps bombed the Shia shrine on behalf of Iran and with encouragement from American forces in Iraq." In an amazing coincidence, in a web forum posting The Mujahidin Shura Council in Iraq (an umbrella group of several Sunni terrorist organizations) also placed blame for the bombing on Iraqi Prime Minister al Jafari, the Badr Corps, and the government of Iran. According to the statement, the bombing was an effort to distract attention from the crimes of these groups (a likely reference to recent militia killings). They further promised a strong retaliation against the Shia. Iraqi President Jalal Talabani yesterday accused the "takfiris" - those Muslims who regard other Muslims as infidels - of carrying out the bombing in order to cause sectarian sedition. (The US does too - but while fellow Muslims call them takfiri, we call them al Qaeda.) The U.S. ambassador in Baghdad remains optimistic In his first acknowledgment of the turmoil, Zalmay Khalilzad is asking Iraqis to resist the push toward civil war. And he says there is "an opportunity to bring people together" to defeat the promoters of sectarian attacks.And a milblogger there offers a unique perspective: "The situation remains tense here in Baghdad." But, he adds, "I’ve never heard it this quiet." Update: Things move fast - THE movement of Shiite cleric Moqtada al-Sadr, alleged to have played a role in the anti-Sunni violence over the last few days, publicly made peace with political and religious Sunni leaders overnight.The union of two of the most potent anti-US groups in Iraq might be cause for concern. They've coordinated before, when Sunnis in Fallujah were battling US forces while Sadr's militia did the same in Najaf and elsewhere. But Sadr's agreement with the US ended that battle and helped clear the way for the coalition to strike Fallujah in force. But this statement, while open to interpretation, is promising: The sheikhs condemned "those who excommunicate Muslims" a reference to the "takfireen" or Islamist extremists like Abu Musab al-Zarqawi who justify killing fellow Muslims by declaring them non-Muslims.(Via CDR Salamander) Last week's edition of Meanwhile Back at the Front can be read here. (The author of these compilations, an Iraq war veteran, runs the web log The Mudville Gazette.) Posted by Greyhawk / February 25, 2006 3:03 PM | Permalink 3 TrackBacksI'm not there right now. What I do know is that the further you get from there, the more filtered your information is - and a lot of reports from Iraq depend on where that person is. Kind of like the old "Blind man describing an elephant." What I ... Read More Were early reports of civil war and attacks against mosques throughout Iraq greatly exaggerated by the media which didn't bother to actually confirm the carnage? Read More Click here for Greyhawk's latest weekly report. This week: an examination of the propaganda war that's ongoing in the wake of the Shrine bombing. With our western reporters absent or holed up in Baghdad hotels, propaganda may be all we're Read More 22 Comments |
November 26, 2010America@war [Greyhawk]
I think anyone who's ever pondered the "comment" option - once only available on blogs and bulletin boards, now ubiquitous on almost any web site - will appreciate this:
The so-called faculty of writing is not so much a faculty of writing as it is a faculty of thinking. When a man says, "I have an idea but I can't express it"; that man hasn't an idea but merely a vague feeling. If a man has a feeling of that kind, and will sit down for a half an hour and persistently try to put into writing what he feels, the probabilities are at least 90 percent that he will either be able to record it, or else realize that he has no idea at all. In either case, he will do himself a benefit. That's wisdom from the past, captured for posterity at the US Naval Institute, shared via the web on the institute's 137th anniversary. From their about page:
"The Naval Institute has three core activities," among them, History and Preservation: The Naval Institute also has recently introduced Americans at War, a living history of Americans at war in their own words and from their own experiences. These 90-second vignettes convey powerful stories of inspiration, pride, and patriotism. Take a look at the collection, and you'll see it's not limited to accounts from those who served on ships at sea, members of the other branches are well-represented. I'm fortunate to have met USNI's Mary Ripley, she's responsible for the institute's oral history program (and she's the daughter of the late John Ripley, whose story is told here). She also deserves much credit for their blog. ("We're not the Navy nor any government agency. Blog and comment freely.") We met at a milblog conference - Mary knew (and I would come to realize) that milbloggers are the 21st-century version of exactly what the US Naval Institute is all about. Once that light bulb came on in my head, I mentioned a vague idea for a project to her - milblogs as the 21st century oral history that they are. "Put that in writing," she said (of course - see first paragraph above!) - and here's part of the result. Shortly after the first tent was pitched by the American military in Iraq a wire was connected to a computer therein, and the internet was available to a generation of Americans at war - many of whom had grown up online. From that point on, at any given moment, somewhere in Iraq a Soldier, Sailor, Airman or Marine was at a keyboard sharing the events of his or her day with the folks back home. While most would simply fire off an email, others took advantage of the (then) relatively new online blogging platforms to post their thoughts and experiences for the entire world to see. The milblog was born - and from that moment to this stories detailing everything from the most mundane aspects of camp life to intense combat action (often described within hours of the event) have been available on the web... And et cetera - but since you're reading this on a milblog, you probably knew that. And you know that milblogs aren't just blogs written by troops at war, that many friends, family members, and supporters likewise documented their story of America at war online in near-real time, as those stories developed. The diversity in membership of that group is broad, the one thing we all have in common is the impulse to make sense of the seemingly senseless, and communicate the tale - for each of us that impulse was strong enough to overcome whatever barriers prevent the vast majority of people from doing the same. Everyone at some point has some vague idea they believe should be shared - we were the people who, from some combination of internal and external urging, found and spent those many half hours persistently trying to write it down. But where will all that be in another 137 years? Or five or ten, for that matter. That's something I've asked myself since at least 2004 - when I wrote this:
Membership in the ghost battalion has grown in the years since, and an ever growing majority of those abandoned-but-still-standing sites are vanishing. Have you checked out Lt Smash's site lately? How about Sgt Hook's? If you're a long-time milblog reader you know the first widely-read milblog from Operation Iraq Freedom and the first widely-read milblog from Afghanistan are both gone from the web. If you're a relative newcomer to this world you may never even have heard of them - or the dozens upon dozens of others who carried forth the standard they set down. If you have a vague notion that something should be done about that, (a notion I've heard expressed more than once...) then you and I and the good folks at the US Naval Institute are in agreement. Preserving the history documented by the milbloggers is just one of the goals of the milblog project, the once-vague idea that we're now making real. And it's a big idea, if I say so myself - too big to explain in one simple blog post, so stand by for more. Likewise, it's too big a task to be accomplished by just one person. So if you're a milblogger (and exactly what is a milblogger? is a topic for much further discussion on its own) I'm asking for your help. All I'll really need is just a little bit (maybe just one or two of those half hours...) of your time, and your willingness to tell the tale. We've already made history, it's time to save it. (More to follow...) Posted 4:02 PM | Permalink |
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The Mudville Gazette is the on-line voice of an American warrior and his wife who stands by him. They prefer to see peaceful change render force of arms unnecessary. Until that day they stand fast with those who struggle for freedom, strike for reason, and pray for a better tomorrow.
 
 
 Furthermore, I will occasionally use satire or parody herein. The bottom line: it's my house. I like having visitors to my house. I hope you are entertained. I fight for your right to free speech, and am thrilled when you exercise said rights here. Comments and e-mails are welcome, but all such communication is to be assumed to be 1)the original work of any who initiate said communication and 2)the property of the Mudville Gazette, with free use granted thereto for publication in electronic or written form. If you do NOT wish to have your message posted, write "CONFIDENTIAL" in the subject line of your email. Original content copyright © 2003 - 2011 by Greyhawk. Fair, not-for-profit use of said material by others is encouraged, as long as acknowledgement and credit is given, to include the url of the original source post. Other arrangements can be made as needed. Contact: greyhawk at mudvillegazette dot com  Tending Distant Far from hearth and home, watching What tales we'll tell When things grim Some distant sunset, vision fading Saluting fallen friends whose names - Greyhawk, Baghdad, December 2004 |
Why continue to smear as cowards the reporters working in Iraq when you know full well more reporters have died in this war already than during the entire Vietnam War?
The war is a disaster. Don't blame the messenger. Blame the Leader.
Mr. Zimmerman -
I don't think that the question is being raised as to whether or not the reporters are cowards.
I believe that the question is:
Are these reporters doing any better a job of getting to the truth in Iraq than the reporters who covered Katrina in New Orleans did?
Those reporters -
*Told us of rapes and murders in the superdome -
A report that turned out to be hugely exaggerated
*Told us of thousands of dead floating in the streets -
A report that turned out to be hugely exaggerated
*Told us of thousand of looters stealing everything in sight -
A report that turned out to be hugely exaggerated
*Told us of thugs shooting at Rescue helicopters -
Which didn't happen at all
They also focused on New Orleans to the near exclusion of all the other locations hit by the hurricane.
How did people in other cities and states fare? Anybody who doesn't have a friend there know?
They stressed the negatives about that situation, and still do.
Reporters aren't interested in good news....
The headline is never going to be "Thousands Saved" It'll always read "One Dead"
Their desire is to report -something- right now!
They also desire to make it dramatic!
The truth will eventually out, but it's difficult to put any faith in the reporting which we receive about events as they are occuring.
I think that you can agree that these problems have nothing to do with cowardice, but are actually valid concerns for those of us reading the news.
Mark Zimmerman
Cowardice is your term, not mine. I've acknowledged the contributions of reporters like Jonathan Finer of the Washington Post, David Zucchino of the LA Times, Jules Crittenden of the Boston Herald, Joe Galloway with Knight-Ridder, and even the much-maligned Kevin Sites of the notorious Fallujah shooting video. I could go on, but the bottom line is I respect these folks tremendously, whether I agree with them or not. You're going to have to try that accusation elsewhere - I suggest at someplace where you are more familiar with the position of the author.
But with much of the nation under curfew reporters are not on the street. The stories coming from Iraq this week are based entirely on hearsay, but presented otherwise. To capture a more complete picture of what's really happening it's worth examining the sources of those reports.
Lokki's comparison is a good reminder of just how wrong such reports can be.
Right. You didn’t call them cowards. You quote someone else saying, “Because their fixers, their intermediaries between their safe little lives in the Palestine or al Rashid Hotels and the outside world are former members of the regime”
I repeat, more reporters have been killed covering this war than Vietnam. If they’re holed up in Baghdad, it’s because there’s no security. This is a worn-out meme, the claim that all is well, except for the media’s biased reporting.
Zimmerman: Biased reporting or bald faced lies, however you choose to refer to the crap that tends to pour from these stringers, is of little consequence. Greyhawk and others will and have provided more examples of their treasonous slanders, than you've got fingers and toes to count. Cry me a river, you jerks bore me to tears, with your inane denials. More asinine assumptions are further proof of what was just said, while refuting nothing.
There are actual reporters there getting the truth out as was indicated in Greyhawks comment, while I might respectfully disagree with one of his examples. Till the overwhelming amount of bias in the MSM begins to reflect some decency and respect for truth, they can't be trusted as reporters of truths.
"the claim that all is well, except for the media’s biased reporting."
I missed the part where I made that claim too. To you Iraq is a far-off land you hear about in newspapers and on TV but I've been there, and will likely go back. It's a war zone, by definition, everything is not fine there, not even close. Face it, we're examining the results of a terrorist attack on a religious shrine here. It's hardly an indicator that everything is fine.
The response to the event is critical. A civil war sells more papers than would reports on the hard work of rebuilding a shattered country, so we must accept the reality that newspapers have a motive for exaggerating what's happening. In doing so they enhance the prospect of further violence, as people like you take their word as gospel truth and respond to what they are told has happened (i.e., 180+ Sunni mosques attacked).
My suspiscion is that that the shrine bombing may actually serve to unite more than divide. If the Association of Muslim Scholars is actually willing unite with Sadr's element and condemn the takfiri, that represents a significant development - further evidence of the Sunni/Baathist elements breaking with the al Qaeda crew. I remain somewhat sceptical though, time will tell.
Greyhawk: This will work to the advantage of the Iraqi citizens in spite of the never-ending wishes for a US failure by virtually every disrespectful POS on or in the scope. There's about to be a unity of unlikelies.
“It's a war zone, by definition, everything is not fine there, not even close. Face it, we're examining the results of a terrorist attack on a religious shrine here. It's hardly an indicator that everything is fine”
The point is, are we winning or not? By all objective measures—oil and electricity, the numbers of effective Iraqi forces, the number of insurgent attacks—we're losing. Supporters of Bush are left arguing there are no objective measures. This I see as the goal of your post, to demean the press and thus render the negative news meaningless.
“so we must accept the reality that newspapers have a motive for exaggerating what's happening. In doing so they enhance the prospect of further violence, as people like you take their word as gospel truth and respond to what they are told has happened (i.e., 180+ Sunni mosques attacked).”
Man, what a statement! You don’t even know me, yet you can generalize about ‘people like me’? It’s trivial to harp on errors in reporting as you do in this post. Of course there’s going to be inaccurate reporting after an event like this. It’s impossible for reporters to move around Iraq, remember? It’s that bad over there.
“My suspiscion is that that the shrine bombing may actually serve to unite more than divide.”
Another pollyannaish Bush supporter. This event will further enhance the role of sectarian militias, the biggest obstacle to the building of effective Iraqi forces.
Mark Zimmerman,
"By all objective measures—oil and electricity, the numbers of effective Iraqi forces"
There are currently 43 Iraqi battalions that control their own battlespace. 53 Battalions "In the Lead". They don't have their own air support or logistics support or heavy artillery support, so they can't be judged as "fully independent". It doesn't mean they aren't "effective". ISF are assuming battle space at a rate of 1 battalion a week now. The Iraqi Army tank division completed training this week.
Mark,
If we're losing, who's winning? I'm actually interested in your answer.
"It’s trivial to harp on errors in reporting as you do in this post." What errors, specifically?
As for the "Bush supporter" bit, my concerns are more personal than political. I'm in the fight, and that trumps politics. Questions of how the above post may affect the Bush administration never entered my mind when I was writing it.
As for the American press, in this instance I do wish they'd been more candid in admitting they're presenting second hand news, and forthright in acknowledging sources, etc. What's trivial about that?
“If we're losing, who's winning? I'm actually interested in your answer”
It appears to me the sectarian forces are winning--Sadr, the Sunni Islamists (not al Qaeda), and the Iranian allies, such as Hakim. I understand Sadr made a pact with the Association of Muslim Scholars, or some such Sunni insurgent front group, to end the violence. If this holds, it will reinforce the legitimacy of sectarian militias and emphasize the impotency of the American-supported government. This appears to be the general trend of events in Iraq since the invasion. Rather than establish a secular democracy, if Sadr is successful we’re headed for a Sunni/Shiite Islamist regime, which will be a serious threat to our interests. This is the Iranians’ goal, to forge an alliance with Sunni Islamists, as they have done with Hamas.
“What's trivial about that?”
Well, maybe I overstated my case. It’s the quote “their safe little lives” that set me off. This is a repugnant statement, with Jill Carol still in captivity. You have a point, that there is a substantial amount of hysteria in the reporting on recent events. But this is to be expected when events are so fluid and given the constraints journalists have to work under. And it is a reality, which affects Iraqis more than us. The destruction of the mosque targeted Iraqi opinion more than American.
I agree with you on that specific line from Miniter - that was over the top. The gist of his comment is thought provoking - it seems likely that news organizations would still be relying on their old, pre-war connections for news. Nothing wrong with that, per se, but it's something to consider when evaluating their reports.
I believe about 90% of the population of Iraq are people who just want to live their lives in peace - from my experience this is true of most societies worldwide. (But that also translates to following the path of least resistance in most cases - hence the long reign of Saddam Hussein and other thugs 'round the globe.) But while some may want to use this event as evidence of government weakness, I think most of these "average Iraqis" know it's the bombers who are to blame - not the people who didn't stop the bombers.
As for those bombers, like al Qaeda on 9/11, I think they overplayed their hand on this one, and lost a big chunk of support from "middle Iraq".
Civil War remains a distinct possibility. The odd thing is, those who seem to want it most (some elements in the Sunni population) are the ones who will inevitably lose. This week's bit of the old ultra-violence may shock some in that group to their senses. If not, exponentially more bloodshed is inevitable.
Just as a random thought, I wonder if Operational Activation of the 9th Iraq Division(3 Heavy Brigades of T-72 tanks with 4,000 troops each) had any sort of impression on Moqtada and Pals. It wouldn't be American Tanks rolling to crush his "Medhi Army", it would be Iraqi tanks.
http://www.mnf-iraq.com/Releases/Feb/060225e.htm
"But while some may want to use this event as evidence of government weakness, I think most of these "average Iraqis" know it's the bombers who are to blame - not the people who didn't stop the bombers."
I think that's true, but the longer this goes on, the more credence gained by the Islamists, that THEY are the ones to stop the bombers, not the American-supported government; and that one of the first steps towards stability is to get rid of the "occupiers". This is the significance of what we're seeing, I think.
"As for those bombers, like al Qaeda on 9/11, I think they overplayed their hand on this one, and lost a big chunk of support from "middle Iraq"."
al Qaeda takes a very long view. It's in their interests to Lebanonize Iraq with continued instability, creating a base for recruitement and training, and to attack the infrastructure of the West, the Saudi oil fields.
I have no doubt al Qaeda destroyed the Samaara mosque, trying to make it look like a Western operation, by tying up rather than killing the guards and carefully setting out the explosives, rather than using a car bomb. It's in al Qaeda's interests to keep us pinned down as long as possible, creating chaos and confusion in Iraq.
I'm a little weary of those who expect world events to fit themselves into neat little timed packages... World War II won in a 104 minute movie. The Civil War on a two DvD set. World War I in a comic book. Well,unfortunately wars are long and ugly affairs. There were many days in World War I where more men were lost in an hour than have been lost in our years in Iraq.
But: It's not about winning battles, anyhow. The insurgents will never win a single battle worth mentioning in Iraq. Their only hope is that whiners like Mr. Zimmerman get frustrated and force America to quit the field before the insurgents do. Unfortunately they have the example of Vietnam to give them hope.
Frankly none of that matters a damn, anyhow, so let's drop that subject as irrelevant.
Ask yourself the question, fearful Mr. Zimmerman, what happens if America comes back home and turns our weapons into plow shares? Please tell me how you see the situation in five year.... and in ten.
Do you believe that the Islamists will all go home to weave rugs and smoke hookahs?
Will they abandon their attacks in American, English, Spanish, Algerian, Indonesian, Filipino, Dutch, Danish, Russian, Saudi,Iraqi, and Thai citizens?
We tried staying home and ignoring them under Mr. Clinton, you'll recall. They bombed the World Trade Center, so we gave them Afghanistan, and told them they could do what they wanted there if they would leave us alone.... it worked pretty well too, until September 2001 (Except for a few other attacks like the USS Cole and so forth).
They won't quit, Silly Rabbit (yes, that's you, Mr. Zimmerman).... so we don't have the luxury of quitting.... We have to fight the militant Islamists.
If not in Iraq, then where, if not now, then when?
This phenomenon of militant Islam is not going to go away on its own. It's going to last at least 10 to 15 years... perhaps much, much longer.
The 100,000 foot view of the situation says that all this unrest occurs because there are no jobs in the middle east to occupy the young men there.
There will be no jobs, ever, under the current governmental structure. The only way to start job growth is to promote capitalism. That will take 50 years to take root....guess we'd better get started then, eh?
The premise for the war in Iraq may have been just that, a premise. The need was to start a democracy that would promote businesses to hire the unemployed. Ultimately, democracy has a better chance of catching hold in Iraq than in any other middle eastern country. Will it work there? Who knows, but what's the other option? We tried ignoring things and that didn't work.
So, snarky Mr. Zimmerman, in summary you appear to me to be the kind with plenty of complaints, but no ideas. I've told you what I think.
Let's hear your plan for dealing with Islam for the next 10 years.
Why do you assume I want to quit, Lokki? And why do you assume I'm "fearful"?
You want to calm things down in the Middle East? Start with justice in Palestine.
"There will be no jobs, ever, under the current governmental structure. The only way to start job growth is to promote capitalism. That will take 50 years to take root....guess we'd better get started then, eh?"
So, 50 years we're going to be there, Lokki? Fulfilling the Vision of the Great Leader, Bush? Meanwhile, the Iranians, the Russians, ect., are just going to sit on their hands? This isn't strategy, this is delusion.
"Start with justice in Palestine."
Nice Cliche... no plan
Fulfilling the Vision of the Great Leader, Bush
Just another snarky remark .... no plan....
This discussion is obviously over.
Why bother with you? There's work to be done.
"Start with justice in Palestine."
Nice Cliche... no plan"
Well, this was Powell's advance to Bush, after deposing the Taliban.
SO what's your plant, Lokki? Other than capitalism in Iraq in 50 years?
"The 100,000 foot view of the situation says that all this unrest occurs because there are no jobs in the middle east to occupy the young men there."
Where do you get this notion, "Lokki", that job creation is the answer? The 9/11 ringleaders were all highly educated, and all probably could have had good careers either in the Middle East, or in Europe.
Tommy and The Who-Pinball Wizard, aka Mark Zimmerman: All your armchair QB'n skills do exactly what Zimmerman. Lokki asked you a question hot shot. What is your omniscient plan or is your name Powell, in which case I'll ask you to forgive me sir?
Your 15:13 post "This I see as the goal of your post, to demean the press and thus render the negative news meaningless." That kind of view is precisely why discussion with those who sound as if they've got an agenda and won't allow them to see the goal of this post or any other. If you can, answer a few questions. Who is served by issuing hysterical news reports? No shit it's rough but changing the facts do what when reporting a news story? Who does it serve? Who's side are you on? Who's spirit and will are you trying to impact? The disaster is the war in people like you and not the progresses you refuse to see in IRAQ!
These assholes are banking on the nadless whiners to bleed our efforts in the ME, with the thousand cuts method. They don't think we'll get Jacksonian on their ass. We might not but, then again we might. Those with no sand should simply stand aside and STFU! Let the people do their job, finish the move and come home when the timing is right. Breaking the will and spirit of the enemy is made harder by lame reports and bald faced lies!
By the way, some of you might want to note that Mark and I were carrying on a fine, non-abusive discussion...