The reader will kindly forgive any tendency to rough language or behavior on the part of the site owner...
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"Good people sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
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December 16, 2004

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Rough men

By Mrs Greyhawk

Hawk,

It was my reading of that quote at your site so many times that inspired me to write something about it. It is a wonderful bit of wisdom, and combined with this quote of Haile Selassie's, is a rather effective way of making critics of the war ponder their position, if but for a moment, until their fuzzy logic takes hold again.

"Throughout history, it has been the inaction of those who could have acted; the indifference of those who should have known better; the silence of the voice of justice when it mattered most; that has made it possible for evil to triumph."

Charles at Global Spec Ops brought this bit of wisdom to my attention.

"Good people sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."

George Orwell (with a nod to the Mudville Gazette)

Rough men

There's a character trait that's decided by fate
Comes (sadly) to many, far too faint, far too late.
They won't face the aggressor, stand up to his ire
They have not the will to fight his fire with fire.
So they bend over backwards to see all sides as fair,
Till they're faced with dragon breath fire in their hair.
Like our brethren in France, who'd know better than we,
Yet seem never to learn, seem doomed never to see.

Yes, it seems there are some who're determined by fate,
To possess not the courage to step up to the plate,
Who shrink from all threat because nothing's worth war.
But how can they know lest they've been there before?
Thank God some have courage, the will, yes, the grace,
To stand for the shirkers, stand strong in their place.
Thank God we have stalwarts who'll stand for us all,
Who will rise to the challenge at their nation's call.

The faint-hearted, who fear, whose reaction is flight,
Have no comprehension of those who will fight.
To hide their own trepidation they attempt to demean
The rough men, who defend them, as barbaric, obscene.
Yet these rough men stand ready, hard weapons to hand,
To put placaters behind them, draw a line in the sand,
To preserve for the peaceniks what they won't defend,
So their own unearned freedom won't perish, won't end.

To appeasers, rough men are coarse government tools.
To rough men, appeasers are dumb delusional fools.

Russ Vaughn
2d Bn, 327th Parachute Infantry Regiment
101st Airborne Division
Vietnam 65-66

Thank You Russ

Russ Vaughn is the Poet Laureate of The American Thinker

UPDATE: It seems there is a debate on where this quote originated. Now by all means, I'm no scholar but I can google and this is my conclusion.

It may be a merger of the statement made in Orwell's essay on Rudyard Kipling (1942) ["He (Kipling) sees clearly that men can only be highly civilized while other men, inevitably less civilized, are there to guard and feed them."] and the definition of a pacifist from Orwell's "Notes on Nationalism" (1945) [PACIFIST: Those who 'abjure' violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.]

Now who do we attribute this quote to? I say both. No one knows who created the exact quote that Greyhawk uses. Neither Orwell or Kipling said those exact words in any of their writings and we may never know who did, so let's close the matter with what we do know. These two were brilliant men and the quote was obviously derived from these writings.

And to the commenter who says on his site, Still, (mostly) warmongerers have been repeating this made-up phrase without question for a long time, and now with the "Good" attached - which in my opinion significantly alters the meaning of the quote which implies that the "good people" consent. Plenty of good people do not consent to most war.

To this I say yes, you right, "Good" shouldn't be added because bad people also sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf. And the word "Good" added doesn't show consent by good people, it's just an undeniable fact, and for your information all quotes are made up, that's how they come into existence. Now "Shoo Fly don't bother me". -Thomas Brigham Bishop (sang by Kitty Wells)

PS:
maybe Greyhawk should add this quote to his header:

"Take my word for it, the silliest woman can manage a clever man; but it needs a very clever woman to manage a fool." - Rudyard Kipling

Silly me
-- Mrs Greyhawk

Greyhawk says:

By the way that's why I never attributed the quote - its source is unknown. A lot of people credit me with it now, but that was never my intention. (Well, I did add the bit about the reader forgiving rough language or behavior.)


Posted by Mrs Greyhawk / December 16, 2004 2:46 PM | Permalink

4 TrackBacks

Rough men from Small Town Veteran on December 16, 2004 3:15 PM

Russ emailed to tell me this was on The American Thinker and give me permission to copy it. It's also posted here on The Mudville Gazette with some background information. Rough men“Good people sleep peaceably in their beds at night Read More

That's how I feel this morning. Read More

Orwell didn't actually say this. Read More

Rough men from Small Town Veteran on December 17, 2004 1:11 PM

Update 2004.12.17: There's apparently some question about whether the "rough men stand ready" quote is really from Orwell. Mudville has the story. Read More

9 Comments

I really enjoyed this poem, as I do all of Mr. Vaughn's works that you have posted. I have to say, however, that everytime I read the quote at the top of the page, I chuckle to myself that, even though I am sure there are many "rough men" out there, those of us who really know Greyhawk think of him as more of the big loveable teddy bear type--albeit a BRAVE loveable teddy bear! (and besides, who would you really rather spend time with, some rough guy or your favorite teddy bear? So there, lil' bro, now the world knows your secret :) Love you!

...which is why MY family doesn't know about the blog...

My hat is off to both Greyhawk and Blackfive for their efforts to make the people of this country appreciate those rough men they talk about. Their blogs are what mine tries to be but just never quite gets there. I personally have a very strong hunch that should the need arise Greyhawk could turn into someone his family can't even imagine. There's a piece of every true Warrior that's best kept hidden till it's needed.

GH,
The rough men poem is actually by Rudyard Kipling and not Orwell. It's been erroneously attributed to him for a while...

thebronze is right. Since there's a bunch of people linking to this post, it might be wise to correct that. I found a bit of bg about the quote and put it on my blog - click on my homepage link.

Whoever it ought to be attributed to, it would seem to me it's still pretty vague (which I also discuss in the post above).

Bill, I certainly have no doubt that Greyhawk could rise to any occasion if need be, but I would characterize him more as strong and capable rather than "rough." And after all, bears can be quite ferocious. :)

That is a very nice poem I wonder if Mr. Vaughn
has ever read any of the work by a Robert Service.
I would recomend it to him if he has not, I think
that he would like his work very much.

jafore

Bronze,
let me correct you if I may, the Rough men poem is by Russ Vaughn, the quote is what you are debating. Just didn't want Russ to get offended, but I know he's a smart man and probably new what you ment.

Mrs. GH,
LOL! Too late, I've already heard from Russ via email. I was in fact, talking about the quote, not Russ' poem. Sorry for the confusion.

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November 26, 2010


America@war
[Greyhawk]
I think anyone who's ever pondered the "comment" option - once only available on blogs and bulletin boards, now ubiquitous on almost any web site - will appreciate this:
The so-called faculty of writing is not so much a faculty of writing as it is a faculty of thinking. When a man says, "I have an idea but I can't express it"; that man hasn't an idea but merely a vague feeling. If a man has a feeling of that kind, and will sit down for a half an hour and persistently try to put into writing what he feels, the probabilities are at least 90 percent that he will either be able to record it, or else realize that he has no idea at all. In either case, he will do himself a benefit.

That's wisdom from the past, captured for posterity at the US Naval Institute, shared via the web on the institute's 137th anniversary.

From their about page:

The Naval Institute shall remain

INDEPENDENT - A non-profit member association, with no government support, that does not lobby for special interests;

NON-PARTISAN - An independent, professional military association with a mission, goals and objectives that transcend political affiliations; and shall encourage

IDEAS - Through its respected journals Proceedings and Naval History, its conferences, its books and its online content, in support of those who serve.

"The Naval Institute has three core activities," among them, History and Preservation:

The Naval Institute also has recently introduced Americans at War, a living history of Americans at war in their own words and from their own experiences. These 90-second vignettes convey powerful stories of inspiration, pride, and patriotism.

Take a look at the collection, and you'll see it's not limited to accounts from those who served on ships at sea, members of the other branches are well-represented.

I'm fortunate to have met USNI's Mary Ripley, she's responsible for the institute's oral history program (and she's the daughter of the late John Ripley, whose story is told here). She also deserves much credit for their blog. ("We're not the Navy nor any government agency. Blog and comment freely.") We met at a milblog conference - Mary knew (and I would come to realize) that milbloggers are the 21st-century version of exactly what the US Naval Institute is all about. Once that light bulb came on in my head, I mentioned a vague idea for a project to her - milblogs as the 21st century oral history that they are.

"Put that in writing," she said (of course - see first paragraph above!) - and here's part of the result.

Shortly after the first tent was pitched by the American military in Iraq a wire was connected to a computer therein, and the internet was available to a generation of Americans at war - many of whom had grown up online. From that point on, at any given moment, somewhere in Iraq a Soldier, Sailor, Airman or Marine was at a keyboard sharing the events of his or her day with the folks back home. While most would simply fire off an email, others took advantage of the (then) relatively new online blogging platforms to post their thoughts and experiences for the entire world to see. The milblog was born - and from that moment to this stories detailing everything from the most mundane aspects of camp life to intense combat action (often described within hours of the event) have been available on the web...

And et cetera - but since you're reading this on a milblog, you probably knew that. And you know that milblogs aren't just blogs written by troops at war, that many friends, family members, and supporters likewise documented their story of America at war online in near-real time, as those stories developed.

The diversity in membership of that group is broad, the one thing we all have in common is the impulse to make sense of the seemingly senseless, and communicate the tale - for each of us that impulse was strong enough to overcome whatever barriers prevent the vast majority of people from doing the same. Everyone at some point has some vague idea they believe should be shared - we were the people who, from some combination of internal and external urging, found and spent those many half hours persistently trying to write it down.

*****

But where will all that be in another 137 years? Or five or ten, for that matter. That's something I've asked myself since at least 2004 - when I wrote this:

Closing Blogs is nothing new. So many site's owners just give up on their own. They come and go, you know, these MilBloggers do. Like any other sort of blogger. Many post in the lonely down hours far from home, spill their guts for the world, then abandon their spots when the tour of duty is up. They have lives again somewhere in the world, and no need to share the details. So it goes.

Many are truly gone - no site left at all. "The page cannot be found." Other blogs remain, like abandoned defensive positions in shifting desert sands.

Membership in the ghost battalion has grown in the years since, and an ever growing majority of those abandoned-but-still-standing sites are vanishing. Have you checked out Lt Smash's site lately? How about Sgt Hook's? If you're a long-time milblog reader you know the first widely-read milblog from Operation Iraq Freedom and the first widely-read milblog from Afghanistan are both gone from the web. If you're a relative newcomer to this world you may never even have heard of them - or the dozens upon dozens of others who carried forth the standard they set down.

If you have a vague notion that something should be done about that, (a notion I've heard expressed more than once...) then you and I and the good folks at the US Naval Institute are in agreement. Preserving the history documented by the milbloggers is just one of the goals of the milblog project, the once-vague idea that we're now making real.

And it's a big idea, if I say so myself - too big to explain in one simple blog post, so stand by for more. Likewise, it's too big a task to be accomplished by just one person. So if you're a milblogger (and exactly what is a milblogger? is a topic for much further discussion on its own) I'm asking for your help. All I'll really need is just a little bit (maybe just one or two of those half hours...) of your time, and your willingness to tell the tale.

We've already made history, it's time to save it.

(More to follow...)




Posted 4:02 PM | Permalink | Comments (0) |

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The Mudville Gazette is the on-line voice of an American warrior and his wife who stands by him. They prefer to see peaceful change render force of arms unnecessary. Until that day they stand fast with those who struggle for freedom, strike for reason, and pray for a better tomorrow.
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  • thebronze: Mrs. GH, LOL! Too late, I've already heard from Russ read more
  • Mrs Greyhawk: Bronze, let me correct you if I may, the Rough read more
  • Jafore: That is a very nice poem I wonder if Mr. read more
  • bigsisevengreyerhawk: Bill, I certainly have no doubt that Greyhawk could rise read more
  • theyeti: thebronze is right. Since there's a bunch of people linking read more
  • thebronze: GH, The rough men poem is actually by Rudyard Kipling read more
  • Bill Faith: My hat is off to both Greyhawk and Blackfive for read more
  • Blackfive: ...which is why MY family doesn't know about the blog... read more
  • bigsisevengreyerhawk: I really enjoyed this poem, as I do all of read more

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The Mudville Gazette is written and produced by Greyhawk, who recently retired from 24 years of active duty in the US military, but will maintain this disclaimer: Unless otherwise credited, the opinions expressed are those of the author, and nothing here is to be taken as representing the official position of or endorsement by the United States Department of Defense or any of its subordinate components.

Furthermore, I will occasionally use satire or parody herein. The bottom line: it's my house.

I like having visitors to my house. I hope you are entertained. I fight for your right to free speech, and am thrilled when you exercise said rights here. Comments and e-mails are welcome, but all such communication is to be assumed to be 1)the original work of any who initiate said communication and 2)the property of the Mudville Gazette, with free use granted thereto for publication in electronic or written form. If you do NOT wish to have your message posted, write "CONFIDENTIAL" in the subject line of your email.

Original content copyright © 2003 - 2011 by Greyhawk. Fair, not-for-profit use of said material by others is encouraged, as long as acknowledgement and credit is given, to include the url of the original source post. Other arrangements can be made as needed.

Contact: greyhawk at mudvillegazette dot com

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*****

Tending Distant
Fires


Far from hearth and home, watching
Cold alone but not alone
On distant shore and only wanting
Safe return and little more

What tales we'll tell
When that time comes
When tales can be told

When things grim
Seem far away
When other fires go cold

Some distant sunset, vision fading
Memories remain
And tired eyes gaze 'pon folded flags
While distant drums beat their refrain

Saluting fallen friends whose names
And youth will never fade
Here's to those on other shores,
for them live well, the price is paid

- Greyhawk,
Baghdad,
December 2004